OCCK FEEDBACK ~

[Helen Dagner]

Helen, I always wondered why you and your helpers kept sending these emails out, when they were in fact still investigating John? I have them back untill 1996,if you ever want to run them. I always thought this was a good one. Sue

March 22, 2006



An Open Letter to Det. Gray:



Twenty-nine years ago today the still-warm body of Tim King was discovered in a roadside ditch. Tim would be 40 if he was alive today. I respect and admire the officers who have put their heart and soul into trying to solve the murders of Tim, Kristine, Jill and Mark for the past 30 years. Some officers have died with the painful knowledge that the crimes have not been solved. It seems that with the passage of time, the scarcity of physical evidence, and the lack of an eyewitness to any of the abductions there is no way anyone can ever be 100% sure of anything regarding the case.



What would be the harm in taking one last definitive, objective look at John’s alibi(s)? He apparently had a passport showing he was out of the country during the time of one of the murders. Could he have killed three of the four kids and one of the cases not be related? Surely it was possible in the late 70’s to get a fake passport. How was the passport information checked out? Was the passport taken at face value? Did anyone check to see if the father (who may have had the same name) had been traveling during that time? Is it POSSIBLE that this John had a fake passport and could be the killer? I know LE must hate these types of websites, but really, wouldn’t it be possible for you to tell Helen how/why John was eliminated as a suspect in the past? The cases are 29-30 years old, will probably never be solved with 100% certainty, and there can’t be a lot of hot tips coming in. If John is not still a viable suspect, why not reveal how he was eliminated (at least to Helen)?



I know there are a million arm-chair detectives out there and LE has had to deal with almost all of them in the OCCK case. However, while the child porn angle initially makes sense, it would mean more than one or two people were probably involved, making it that much more likely that someone would talk or slip up over the years. Of course if these cases were related to that industry, photographic evidence may exist, which is probably the only way to prove who killed these kids. But what if that’s not what happened?



It may seem crazy to LE that a website like Helen’s exists, but these crimes affected many, many people—in hugely life-altering ways. Not only were the crimes unimaginable, but there were no answers. That’s why some of us ask if it is possible that the focus on the child porn industry, like the focus on the blue gremlin in 1977, is off-base?



Again, no offense is intended to you or any LE. The OCCK case is unlike any other. But this is a decades-old case and surely no harm could come of either putting to rest once and for all the John theory, or admitting that it is possible it could have been someone like John or John himself, but it can’t be proven and that’s why you still have to look at other possible suspects. Note: We posted and sent them letters -just to keep them on their toe.s-this letter you sent,was one that Cathy wrote,just hang on to all the others,maybe will want them.

[Helen Dagner]

Helen, Remember this post of yours at Serialchic' Re: HELP!-John Norman Collins-MI.Co-Ed Killer
What I want to know,is did the guy up there in Petoskey ever make a connection to Collins and the family of 6 who were murdered 40 plus years ago? The last I heard he was writing a book about the murders and was going to state that the mother had been dating Collins who was a friend of one of the boys. Betty

"On August 19, 1970, after deliberating for three days, the jury brought in a unanimous verdict of guilty of first-degree murder. At the sentencing hearing, Collins denied ever knowing Karen Sue Beineman and claimed that he was innocent of her murder. He was subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment at Southern Michigan State Prison, a minimum of twenty years. He went through three appeals and even changed his name to Chapman to get a transfer to Canada, where he would have been eligible for parole in 1985. He also tried to escape by tunneling out of the prison. As of 1999, he is still incarcerated in northern Michigan."** Note: Betty, the old guy died before he got his book publish, but I was given all of his work product and photos-I do not have any energy left tonight to drag that box out-but I will do it-and we will see what is there-

[Helen Dagner]

I notice a lot more readers are taking and interest in the Oakland County Child Killings. I know you have all sent me tons of info over the years,and I'm asking you once again,If you think you know anything about these cases,but your not sure if it is important,please send us your info..it will be taken seriously~ it only takes one person with the right piece of this puzzle,to make a real difference,and if there are any more retired cops or their family members who want to turn over your take home files...we would like to go through them-also,It is time to ask you again to go through your old photos and see if any of the names you have seen posted about people of interest could be in your albums...maybe from a summer or winter outing..maybe at a pool party at a Bar...you get the idea...Please contact me,and we will make arrangements to pick this info up...we are running out of time with the Occk cases,soon the window will close,never to open again-so please do the right thing,I feel strongly that there are people out there that know something that we don't...so please be a Hero,as these cases have gone on far to long...

[Helen Dagner]

The most critical part to me is the vehicle information from
Kristine's crime scene. The mailman who found her was delivering
mail and was "bored" and was driving along following some fresh tire
tracks that had been left in the snow. He followed these tracks
until they came to a point where they swerved across the road. At
this point, he saw Kristine's body (or portions of it). The imprints
in the snow indicated that the car had swerved at the crest of a
hill, right at the point where a driver would have seen houses down
below in a cul de sac of Bruce Lane (up to this point, the road was
secluded). As it turned around, the front left side of the car left
a mark in the snow. The car backed up and struck the opposite snow
bank with enough force to leave an impression of the rear
undercarriage of the car. The car then completed the turn and
footprints were left in the snow leading to the body. Note: We have a photo of this car and the damage was clearly on the right side-So I guess every bit of Info on these cases was manipulated~ Why?

[Helen Dagner]

I will have to go back and look at the second set of photos--I was having trouble getting into the second set that Greg sent. I just saw the photo of the Hastings Indian tribe members. Do you think the Mike Hastings info has any credibility? I'm telling you, it would not surprise me one bit if he was involved beyond just lying to save his brother's skin.
I have no doubt that you are telling the complete truth. I just hope to god they shook up John enough to get that guy to fu-ck-ing spill the beans. I have long thought that maybe Chris Busch was molesting Mike Hastings. He may have even used Mike as a lure to get boys to molest. There is some god-d**n link between Chris Busch and the Hastings family. It just defies common sense to say otherwise. Who knows what the link is with Mike--but that fu-c-ker is dirty and that is not debatable. You know that alibi bullnuts was just that--bullnuts. So at a bare minimum, John knew sh-it he shouldn't have known and he lived streets away from Busch. His younger brother obviously lied for him and then left town as soon as a high school student could leave town. How anybody but the Bham PD and the MSP could look at this shi-t and say 2 plus 2 doesn't equal 4 is just insane. Those fu-ckers didn't want John to be involved, so they treated him accordingly in 1992. That was the weakest-tit investigation possible. In the process, they tried to fu-ck you over and that is unforgivable. Thank god you didn't take their sh-it. Think of the many people who just take the word of the cops and don't have the ability to hang in there. Jesus, it makes me crazy. Fuc-kers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These co-cksukers have not only not fulfilled their duty (which is owed to four innocent children), they have tried to take down anybody who tried to do the right thing. There is going to be hell to pay and people like us are through paying. Helen, they wouldn't go to Atlanta if there was nothing there. You know they didn't even want to give you the satisfaction of knowing they were going down there to grill him. So as much as it must have killed the MSP to send Gray along, the fu-cke-rs did so. They are not in a position to throw money around right now, and they STILL sent the fu-ckw-ad down there.
You are completely vindicated, Helen, any way this shakes out. If the MSP doesn't realize this, they are much dumber than I originally gave them credit for.

[Helen Dagner]

Helen, Eton Ice Rink drew people from Troy, B'ham, Bloomfield Hills and Royal Oak - is there a chance that another child could have been spotted there too?A hunting ground? Did Tim skate with kids he DID NOT attend school with?

[Helen Dagner]

Helen:

Thank you for your reply. I would really like to see some of those old newspaper articles. Is John his real first name? Do you have an actual photo of the suspect? Did his family help him keep the children at the home? I remember you mentioning his family had a long history of mental illness, yet he seemed to control himself around you?

I will talk to you later,

thanks

[Helen Dagner]

Helen, As far as Mike being John's alibi--I can't say. Pretty lame, you would think they would have to double-check with one of the parents to try to confirm at least part of the story. In some ways, however, you could argue that a 17-year-old, straight-A student would be believed before the protective mother of a psychopath would. Especially if they went to Seaholm and took a look at his records--I bet the guy was a "model citizen." xxxx

[Helen Dagner]

Larry, I think this is what your looking for,if not let me know. "It is the first time prosecutors have gone on the record to say there is zero evidence suggesting Busch is the Oakland County Child Killer. His DNA does not match the physical evidence they have.
Complete coverage: Oakland County Child Killer case
"Whatever evidence that may or may not exist does not come back to Busch," said Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica Cooper.
Police sources have told Local 4 that Busch's suicide scene is suspicious and may have actually been a murder. They know he had a drawing of a tortured boy that closely resembled victim Mark Stebbins. Ropes were found in his closest. He had a blue Vega car which looked like the infamous blue Gremlin spotted at one of the abductions.
None of that matters because investigators now tell Local 4 Busch did not commit the murders. Someone else did and that suspect is still alive. The suspect will be arrested very soon if prosecutors get the right kind of DNA match.

[Helen Dagner]

I finally went to bed last night, lol. Since nothing else is working, try this.

Since you know yahoo.

Go to regular www.yahoo.com

In the search box type in "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"

Make sure you use the quotes and no spaces.

The only match that should come up, should be his page, then you get start clicking around. Sgt.

[Helen Dagner]

Lol-I'm not going to post the emails you sent in about Patrick, I can answer them all at once... " He is a Police Code 918"

[Helen Dagner]

I am very much behind on getting the Feedback posted,I will try to get it up as the day goes on,I'm busy working on something else right now-Here is one I just read~ Helen, was Chris cleared because his Dna didn't match? Jeff * Note Jeff,I would doubt that was the reason,because the DNA doesn't match anyone,and even if they would come up with someone who had this line of Micro,it would mean absolutely nothing and could only be useful as a tool,to see if they could find other evidence that match the suspect, these cases will not be solved by DNA,unless they get a direct hit and you know that is not going to happen,not the way the DNA has been handle in this case,so as far as I am concerned...no one could be eliminated....

[Helen Dagner]

Helen, So what are you saying? That Busch shouldn't be eliminated? Matt Note Matt,I'm really not the person you should be asking,I just don't know. I did reserch on Busch since 2003 or 04,I could find nothing other than Investigators going back and reading old reports and then assuming Busch Could have-or should have been taken more seriously,but as far as evidence of his involvement,I didn't find anything other then hearsay. But I do understand now why the King family thought he could be involved, I mean clearly he was involved in a lot of bad stuff,I never had access to those FOIA papers,that Cathy is posting on her site,However I can tell you that the Cops were lying to me since 2004 about Chris and right up to the date ,that Jessica,said he is not involved-I had absolutely no Idea that anyone other than Cory was looking into Busch,I asked a lot of troopers if they were looking into him and they all said no. I asked many of the investigators if Sgt Gray was considering Chris and they said no. In fact most of them said,why would he look into him?No one else but Cory,thinks he could be involved. Yet the FOIA Documents that Cathy is posting,tell a different story,they clearly show that Sgt. Gray put a lot of time into trying to make a connect of Busch to the Occk-and just as puzzling to me,is why didn't he stop,when he kept coming up empty handed ? See none of this makes any sense to me...there just has to be more to this story...I don't think we will ever know the truth~

[Helen Dagner]

Helen, what do you think of the recent Documents that Cathy posted on her site? Geo *Note- I think they are great and that she is doing a very good job. That is some eye opening stuff that she is posting,so glad she is sharing,with us all.

[Helen Dagner]

Sarah,no I will not rerun Tim's drop off photo as it is already on the site,I have also decided not to run your post,as it is to graphic and because I have no intention of answering your questions-Here is the general Idea of what Sarah had to say-She does not believe the photo of Tim posted on his sisters site,was taken the day of his abduction, she does believe that Tim was wearing the same outfit after school on that day he was abducted, as one of the boys who was with him,said he was-here is where the problem comes in for Sarah,she worked on Tim's case with our Team and was given a file with Tim's drop off photo in and his hair was longer and he was heavier,and there is no way,his hair could of grown that much in 6 days,also on our site she saw what Tim looked like in his hockey photo and that is what he looked like in his death photo. She feels real strongly that Tim changed his clothing before leaving the house that night to go buy candy,because in her notes she had that Tim's Mom had saved the clothing that she had last seen him wearing and since we know that he was not found in those clothing that are shown in the Science Fair photo and the fact that the cloths he was wearing when found would have been kept for evidence...then she goes on and on -Ok Sarah, If this really bothers you,then I suggest you go over to Cathy's site and fill out a comment tell her up front you do not want it posted on the site and I'm sure you will receive and answer from her, be sure to enclose your email address~ I did view the photos your talking about -side by side and in and overlay-and I can see why you have questions-But does it really matter? Isn't this kind of nit picking? Also NO I will not be checking on the date of the Science Fair.