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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 20:52:26 GMT -5
Jan. 2009-Repost-I'm re running this post as we received new info on both cases- Don't you wonder how 2 boys - 1 mentally retarded, 1 physically disable (Bobby Grinnan and Anthony Mitchell) are dead at an early age in that close of vicinity of the Hastings family? I know forever ago you mentioned a retarded boy being murdered and for a long time, I thought maybe it was really Mitchell with his severed hand, but now it is clearly a real person. Both boys deaths were before I lived there (I was only 2 when Bobby was murdered) so my frame of reference has always been limited by my age ( imagine that!) The bigger picture shows me 2 boys who were murdered in close proximity of John's location - even having close geographical reasons to be near their death spots. It seems that perhaps when John's arena got larger (because he could drive etc.) the surrounding child deaths got farther away but still within close reach to Tuckahoe. It is all just so bizarre. NOTE: What is so interesting to me,is that in with the new Info,the writers said just about the same thing,so there had to be talk about this going a round at the time,as I am certain that these posters do not know each other...yes it is bizarre!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:03:12 GMT -5
I bet you're right, Helen. If I'm reading that case right, the person was trying to point out how easy it would be for someone to get out of Ardmore Acres. In other words, someone tried to do the right thing by committing this person, but the person was saavy enough to get himself sprung. I would bet you $$ that one of those AH was at Ardmore for a time. Sex offenders were routinely placed in mental hospitals back then, even after being convicted of violent, violent attacks on children. I guess they thought these types could be "cured" although from the sounds of Ardmore Acres back in the day, not much curing took place. Sounds like a lot of sedation and restraint.
I wouldn't want anyone I loved to be placed in a state mental hospital--even today. Although this Ardmore Acres sounds like it was a f---ing hellhole, too, I guess the thought would have been that you would be exposed to fewer freaks at a private, where people had to pay to be there. And, your stay would be more "undercover" at a private, perhaps. NOTE: Well it has been a lot of years since we worked on this,however I just received,the Info we were looking for...and none of the Occk players appear on the list of clients,there are some redacted names however,but they do not match any of the dates that we were looking into.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:06:49 GMT -5
Helen,when did Chris Busch move into Johns area? Dale Note: Busch family moved there in January 1970. Prior address was 2860 Clark, Detroit. Sold this house in July 1979. The parents continued to live in Birmingham area until 2002--when they probably moved out east to be near their only living son.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:13:16 GMT -5
Helen,How can you deal with this case daily ? I'd be an emotional wreck. Sue Note: It hasn't been easy...
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:17:46 GMT -5
Helen, Question - did you really want the name 'Hastings" on that post to be public? I don't recall you ever mentioning John's family name before. Ray Note: I use to protect it however everyone else post his name and it is not like it is a big secret any more...
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:24:15 GMT -5
Helen, remember when we worked on this? What year was it? Do you have that family name handy? There was a sniper running rampant in Bloomfield Township. A 38 year old woman was killed by a 22 through her kitchen window. Turned out it was her brilliant 15 year old son who was a sophomore at Bloomfield Hills High, he had an IQ of 140. Anyway, he apparently killed his Mother because she was too strict and made excuses to keep him at home. He set it up so that he sniped at a few other windows to make it look like there was a sniper in the area. Then one night he snuck out of the basement, shot her, and then snuck back in. He ended up being ordered to a State Mental Hospital and his Father was going to try to place him in Pontiac State Hospital. Jon Note: I would have to look this Info up for you,I really do not remember the case,at this time.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:29:49 GMT -5
Hi Helen, I searched through the news articles for Bloomfield Hills murders in the 1960's. Didn't find a whole lot... 1) Ross G. Witthoeft of Bloomfield Hills, and a friend fro Birmingham (forget the name) were sentenced for stabbing a college student in a fight in Boston Mass. in April of 1977 2) In February of 1957 there was another "Phantom Sniper Case". This one was done by Gary Addison Taylor of Royal Oak. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity in the late 60's. The victim was a Bloomfield Hills resident by the name of Shirley Elan.Betty Note: Yes,this is yet another case,however not the one referred to in the post above it. Thanks though for taking the time to look!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:38:56 GMT -5
Helen,when was Johns father interviewed by the Occk task Force? I can remember several people turned in his name. Cal Note: I have this news clip however all I can tell you is it was before June when his Dad transferred to Chicago-In 1977
This is from The Detroit News, Tuesday, May 31, 1977, article by Michael F. Wendland, News Staff Writer. The headline reads: "Killer Still at Large: Fear Stalks Children." On the continuation page (6A), the article states:
"Children are not the only victims.
A man named John, who asked that his last name not be used, has his comfortable home in Bloomfield Township for sale.
'Somebody turned me in,' he said, deeply embarrassed. 'One day, I'm out cutting my lawn and two cops come up. They start questioning me. I couldn't believe it. I was actually a suspect. All they'd say was that they had a tip. From one of my neighbors, I guess. Ever since then it's like I really was the killer. Nobody will look at me. My neighbors call their kids in whenever I'm outside.'
Recently divorced and living alone, John has no idea who reported him, or why." [ The article goes on to mention other people who were also questioned] -But that is in another file-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 21:57:31 GMT -5
Helen, Is this the (Head Dr.) Stowers vs Wolodzko. Who is still living and should be investigated by the Occk Task Force? He lived a short distance from Mark as I recall and had some writings in a Journal that certainly sounded like he knew him and the things he said he would like to do to children Marks age,and his having two different names and ID's and the box of toys,ect. ect. Do you know if they talked to him?
NOTE; The case you named is a 1971 Michigan case which apparently deals with false imprisonment in a clinical setting--schizo stuff. My guess is it involves something that took place at Ardmore Acres.so I would think that alone would have got him an interview with the cops-as he lost that case,and had to pay several thousand,but then who knows if he was ever talked to,there never was much follow up done on people who were turned in...If they came from a good family or had a white collar job.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 22:09:03 GMT -5
Scott- This is from my original notes about the water tower death, What John told me nearly 23 years ago...was that he had a friend who fell off a water tower-his name was Tony...and his father had designed the first Corvette {a red one}....I said well how did he fall off there...he said there where 5 of us guys up there fooling a round{I think John said two of his brother-were among the 5...He said they had made plans earlier in the day...but Tony had to sneak out-because his step- father had grounded him again...so they weren't sure he would be there...However he turned a light on in his bedroom to fake his parents out when they would return home...they would just think he was reading...and they wouldn't bother checking...because Tony never wanted to be bother when he was in his room...I asked John -why would someone sneak out just to clime a water tower?...He said...well Tony was going to buy some drugs...I remember saying to him...I thought you never did drugs...John said he didn't but the others did....I was just surprised by the conversation...because when I had first met him he told me about this kid he just hated who's father had a red Corvette...Now he was calling him a friend?...So anyway..something just didn't set right with me...and you know how woman have built in computers....So I said where you all there when he fell...and he looked down and said...I don't want to talk about this any more...so I waited a couple of days and called his mother..and asked her if she remembered the Water Tower Death...Oh yes she said I remember it well...The whole family went to the funeral...except for John...I kept telling him he had to go..but when it came time..he just wouldn't..... Not being satisfied with that answer...I call Johns Dad in Florida...to see what he knew about this...and he said...well I didn't know my family went to the funeral...as they never told me...and that he didn't know why John told me Tony was his best friend...because in fact he was Johns youngest brothers best friend-So then I asked him what did he hear about the fall...and he said it had been so long ago-that he could just remember that he had asked his boys what happened and that John said none of them were there but they had heard-that Tony said...I can Fly want to see me...and he walked right off the Tower...I said well what was he on...and he said PCP and LSD....Note: I do have the reason that his step father did not want the case re opened,at least what he told the cops,when they told him they had new information that may show this was a murder,but that too is in a different set of files,so you will have to wait on that info-but I will put it on my list and get back to you-OK?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 16, 2014 22:14:16 GMT -5
Larry, I think this is my final draft- Mark: Distance from where taken: 9 Mile Rd. Ferndale 11 miles, 22 mins, Ferndale Police Distance to drop: 10 Mile & Greenfield Rd: 8.4 miles, 15 mins, Southfield Police Jill: Distance from where taken: 13 Mile at Woodward: 5.1 miles, 10 mins, Royal Oak Police Distance to drop: On I -75: About 5 miles 10 min, Troy Police Kristine: Distance from where taken: 12 mile and Greenfield Rd: 6.2 miles, 13 mins, Berkley Police Distance to drop: Bruce Lane, 13 mile and Telegraph Rd: 3 miles, 6 mins, Franklin Police Tim: Distance from where taken: 15 Mile at Woodward: 2.6 miles, 5 mins, Birmingham Police Distance to drop: 8 mile Rd at Farmington: 13 miles, 22 mins. Livonia Police, Wayne Co.
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Post by joewoods on Feb 17, 2014 9:41:29 GMT -5
Talk of this Dr. keeps popping up. How many coincidences does there have to be
1. There is a family address just blocks away from Marks on Withington, he lived alone in another city
2. He drove a LeMans(white) which probably had a trailor hitch,as he had a boat on a trailor
3. He had an Alpena address(not sure if significant)
4.2 unclaimed money due to accidents in Livonia which could prove or disprove type of damage to car. Significant in some reports
5. Ardmore Acres, where he was a Dr. is 3 minutes from Tims dropoff
6. Just prior to Marks abduction his journal expressed loving to be around children 12-15 and a later date expressed murderous feelings
7. Use of an alias name
now for a logical explanation why info is dismissed. Info was passed 1978 by a young woman, probably never passed on, today an old woman, would not look very good
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 17, 2014 23:18:50 GMT -5
This is a post I received a very long time ago and never ran it because I didn't know the answers -however now I do-I will just run the post tonight as the answers will appear elsewhere on the site soon ###Facts we know: John spent 9 months talking in depth about the OCCK killings. He gave you info never before published. You saw things ( papers, books and a manicure kit) with interesting or odd subject matter as well as an unusual storage place for the manicure kit. You had the BPD come down and investigate ( we won't discuss the quality of said investigation) and we know that John was poly'd at that time. We know that he was questioned in 77 and 78. REDACTED~ We know that Chris Busch was the same age as John and was a neighbor of his. We know that he was rich beyond belief and spent a large amount of time in the home while his parents were in Europe and Florida. We know that he was a sexual deviant sicko. We know he committed suicide in the home shortly after the Tim King murder. We know that Busch sometimes used boys to lure other boys to him. So. . .here goes: What if Busch was using Mike H. as a lure? He was a pretty boy. It is my opinion that as an adult he is horribly screwed up and, as I have said before, continues to reinvent himself in an effort to escape who he really is. He suffers from a disease that is often associated with long term stress and I think he is gay or Bisexual. So, let's say he was sexually abused by Busch ( or worse in a relationship) and John found out. What if John found out and a) Blackmailed the Busch Family? b) Felt that killing the kids would protect his brother from being an accomplice? c) Was in for the thrill of the kill? To ease his own views of unfairness? What if Busch was also at the water tower when Anthony Mitchell fell to his death? What if John pushed that kid and Busch knew and never said anything, just held it over John's head? What if the trade off was Mike? What if John did the killing because Busch was holding him psychologically hostage? What if John did the abducting? With Mike? What if Busch held the kids at his house instead of the rental? What if they used both places? What if Busch did the killing and cleaning and John did the dumping? Busch worked in a nursing home and would have a fair knowledge of medical disinfection. REDACTED Since we know they are looking at Busch ( right, that is what Cathy said?) - you probably have evidence that would connect the two. There is just no way John made this up. He is up to his eyeballs in this somehow. Also of note, both Mitchel's father and Busch's fathers were huge execs at GM. It is very possible that Chris and Anthony were friends. What if they took him up there for some deviant sexual activity and then dumped him? What if that started their hunger for sex and murder? I know this is the stuff of fiction, but does art imitate life or vice versa? Finally, I wonder what the time frame was between Busch's suicide and Mike Hastings sudden move out west?
Like I said these are just swirling thoughts but they kept me awake ALL NIGHT! XXXXXx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 17, 2014 23:51:51 GMT -5
What if Busch was also at the water tower when Anthony Mitchell fell to his death? What if John pushed that kid and Busch knew and never said anything, just held it over John's head? What if the trade off was Mike? What if John did the killing because Busch was holding him psychologically hostage? Note: *Anthony's water Tower incident was in 1966--Chris Busch did not live in the area at that time
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 20, 2014 21:38:36 GMT -5
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