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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 28, 2013 4:43:54 GMT -5
He took Jill to a hobby shop too?
I don't know the exact address of the Ferndale shop but it sat between Saratoga and Ardmore on the East side of Woodward.
I tried to post a map between the ALH and the 7-11 but I can't figure out how to post it. JJ
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 28, 2013 4:46:12 GMT -5
I just emailed the mapquest link, it shows the ALH and Mark's house, 7-11 sits on the corner of 9 & Hilton. You can also see where the RR tracks cross Mark's street.
I will see what I can find out about a Berkley Hobby shop and Bellingers. xxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 28, 2013 4:50:20 GMT -5
Helen, This map includes Mark's house at 409 E. Saratoga. The 7-11 was at 9 mile and Hilton real close to the rr tracks. From: 1741 Livernois St Ferndale, MI 48220-1844 US To: Ferndale, MI US To: 409 E Saratoga St Ferndale, MI 48220-3327 US DRIVING DIRECTIONS -------------------------------------------------- A) 1741 LIVERNOIS ST FERNDALE, MI 48220-1844 US -------------------------------------------------- 1. Start out going SOUTH on LIVERNOIS ST. (go 0.02 miles) 2. Make a U-TURN onto LIVERNOIS ST. (go 0.09 miles) 3. Turn RIGHT onto W 9 MILE RD. (go 0.44 miles) 4. End at Ferndale, MI US ››ESTIMATED TIME: 2 minutes | TOTAL DISTANCE: 0.55 miles -------------------------------------------------- B) FERNDALE, MI US -------------------------------------------------- 1. Start out going EAST on E 9 M ILE RD toward WOODWARD AVE/MI-1 N. (go 0.34 miles) 2. Turn RIGHT onto PAXTON ST. (go 0.11 miles) 3. Turn RIGHT onto E SARATOGA ST. (go 0.08 miles) 4. End at 409 E Saratoga St Ferndale, MI 48220-3327 US ››ESTIMATED TIME: 2 minutes | TOTAL DISTANCE: 0.53 miles -------------------------------------------------- C) 409 E SARATOGA ST FERNDALE, MI 48220-3327 US -------------------------------------------------- ››TOTAL ESTIMATED TIME: 4 minutes | TOTAL DISTANCE: 1.08 miles MapQuest - www.mapquest.com - Helping People Find Places ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 28, 2013 4:51:34 GMT -5
Can someone give names of the hobby shops? Is Mark's for sure Tiny Tim's that was on Woodward? Is it now in Royal Oak on Gardenia?
What was the name of the Hobby shop were Jill's bike was found?
If I have names, I am better able to put things together. Anyone? SGT.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 28, 2013 21:53:37 GMT -5
Are you certain that Ruth Stebbins worked with John at Biff's in Troy? I do not remember a Biff's in Troy, but then again I was just a kid when I lived there. I do remember there was a Landmark that was open 24 hours. I am also reasonably certain that Ruth did work at the American Legion Hall, although I am not certain she was still working there at the time of Mark's disappearance. I have also been told that she may have worked two jobs, which would make sense with her being a single mother.Pete * I will answer this about Biffs,No Ruth and John did not work at Biffs-John worked there-However they worked at two different Restaurants together and I can not recall the names at this time-also I do not have Ruths file on line-so I would need to go through my paper files to find that info-and we have had such a good response to Ruth and Mark-that I think rather than my posting some info that may not be accurate-will wait until I can get at her file--I will save all the posts you have sent in-and run them after I get my hands on the file-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 29, 2013 3:50:57 GMT -5
I don't know Helen,John has been investigated so many times,and still no arrest. Jim * Note:According to Ann Rule in "The Stranger Beside Me", Ted Bundy's name came up and was dismissed three times as a suspect before they actually caught him.
He was good looking, charming, involved in the crisis help line and was politically active in the community. * The Green River Killer was Investigated 7 times *and the list goes on and on--
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 29, 2013 3:56:18 GMT -5
Please note that I am NOT arguing for Busch’s innocence, just simply offering *my* thoughts
1) You say they have a DNA match linking Gunnel’s to Kristine. What they have is a Mitochondrial DNA match. MtDNA is inherited from your Mother, and passes down with little if any variations, sometimes for hundreds of years, which means any of Gunnels relatives from his direct maternal line, or men who are first generation from the same, could have provided that hair. Personally, if I were leading the taskforce I would be looking long and hard at Gunnel’s family tree. While I believe he was a little young at the time to carry out these horrendous crimes and get away with it, he wouldn’t necessarily be the only child to ever commit murder, so I would definitely be talking to Gunnels as well.
2) The drawing does not conclusively link Busch to Mark Stebbins. Even if there is a resemblance, there were hundreds of boys involved in the boy’s camp and when he was arrested he had 8 reels of film.
3) Gregory Green offered to hand them the OCCK? What a coincidence, so did Lawson, and so did another prison inmate whose names escapes me at the moment.
Yes, Busch was a known child molester. This is not being disputed, what he did was horrendous, as were Lawson, Lamborgines, Raar, Norberg’s , etc…crimes. They are all monsters and the world is a better place now that they are no longer walking around free to terrorize our children. But, at the end of the day, there isn’t any solid conclusive evidence saying Busch was the OCCK. Now, let’s talk about JH. In the interest of full disclosure, let me first say that I do not have any direct knowledge that any of this is true. What I know came through many years of following this case, and participating in discussions online with many of the people you yourself are in contact with.
1)JH said he did it….he confessed, and there is a witness to that confession. He drew maps, and those maps were turned over to the police. 2)He worked with Ruth Stebbins and was AT the American Legion Hall the day Mark left to walk home, which was less than 6 blocks. 3)He worked at JC Penny’s as “Santa Clause” at 13 mile and Woodward when Jill was taken; he was also a student of Jill’s father. 4)He was on a bowling league, and frequented the bowling alley across the street from the 7-11 where Kristine was taken from. The same bowling alley that Kristine’s mother worked at. 5)He gave a Helen a phone list of boys, there is someone you’ve talked to who can verify the truth of that statement and it’s not me or Helen.
On a different note, but in my opinion, very important, he used to frequent the Landmark restaurant in Troy. John McKinney was last seen having lunch or dinner, depending on which article you believe, with a “mystery woman”. The waitress was hypnotized and provided a sketch. You think the drawing in Busch’s room looked like Mark? You should see the resemblance between the mystery woman sketch and a certain suspects Mother. John McKinney was found dead in his gallery the next morning.
There is so much more to this and I truly believe that he needs to be thoroughly investigated. Go back and read through some of the Freedom of Information act documents posted by mybrotherskeeper and see if you can honestly say that JH is innocent. Again, as with Busch, the evidence is circumstantial, but there is a ton of it.
Now…from my standpoint, I honestly don’t care which suspect turns out to be guilty, all I care about is seeing justice done, and when this case is finally SOLVED and CLOSED, I will be one happy camper whether it’s Busch, JH, someone completely different, or the Easter Bunny. It has been FAR too many years and Mark, Jill, Kristine and Timmy’s families deserve to know who did this. Xxxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 29, 2013 4:36:37 GMT -5
Helen- Those letters are so moving, heartbreaking. I could tell Cathy's letter, but can only guess at the other since it mentions a son and I know Ruth Stebbins is deceased. Hopefully the LE checking out the site will read these. Much of the problem with Family members forcing the issue is that they were raised in the mindset that police were there to, "serve and protect." Much like the 50's housewife who bought into the whole marriage thing and happily ever after as what they were supposed to do - only to find out that they might be miserable and believed they had to suffer in silence because they couldn't shake the "Happily ever after," mindset. There was no reason for any of these parents to believe that the police wouldn't work their tails off to find the killer. It was the way things were supposed to work. Unfortunately, that whole mindset has blown up in our faces and many of these family members are faced with the falling pieces continuously swirling around them. It is frustrating and wholly disappointing as well as frightening that some monster holds enough power to cause not only the victim family members, but citizens of a county, and it's LE to be frozen in time for 36 years. Just look at what this hell this person ( and I hate to call him by the famous name as that may elevate his own personal greatness) has orchestrated: He caused immediate terror in several communities by stealing someones children He maintained that terror by holding them while a county held it's collective breathe. He killed them - unspeakable. He caused entire communities to tremble He fostered an atmosphere of distrust among neighbors He magnified the dysfunction in victim's families as well as friends and acquaintances and sent many into therapy He has toyed with the collective pride of the MSP and made them look inept. His actions created a seismic disruption that has moved outward in concentric cirlce for 36 years. I am furious that some, sick, sadistic killer is allowed to control so much.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 29, 2013 6:18:43 GMT -5
I have no idea what I did with your question? But here is your answer-Yes John admired Ted Bundy...and he followed his activities..read all the books written about him...and did make a few comments about him...but then John had a great many books on other Serial killers...You asked about John's personality...you know...as I recall...he didn't really have one...he was soft spoken...moody...had a dark side...much of the time he was in some type of trance..usually brought on by the snow falling..were there other victims... ?? no legal proof...You asked about John and my relationship...boy that is a tough one...It changed often...one day I would hate him for the monster..he must be...the next day..I just didn't understand how this happen...what did he share with me...well we just kept going over the same things...he always answers my questions...but not always how I hope he would ...actually it was very normal conversation...as for actual threats John has made toward me...was only If I put his name in a book ...he would sue me
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 1, 2013 2:43:01 GMT -5
Helen, when I read on Cathy's site about the red fibers,I went looking for this post of yours. ( Mary's Testimony FOIA- BLK 01625 - 10626
Of all the children in the family, probably she and [John] were the closest. She was the oldest and he was the next oldest. They worked at several restaurants together when they were young while in high school and just out of high school...
[When asked if she though John was a homosexual] She said probably not. She couldn't say exactly why, but it was just her impression that he was not. When they were young, she said that she and her brother paid half and bought an old red Mercury Comet coversable [sic]. Her brother also had a green old Volkswagon). I guess you know what I was thinking,she was a little off on the dates and their ages. Jeff Note: Yes, she was and I thought the same-I have the photos of these cars and where the damage was on them-Interesting-but nothing I can tell you about now.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 1, 2013 2:53:23 GMT -5
Before I go off on this Rant-I want everyone to know-That this is not just a post-a lot of thinking, has gone into what you will read here. First off,In my opinion the most significant act that has happen in the years of the Oakland County Child Murder Investigations,for me-was When The King Family went after and received the FOIA papers-and then shared them...and where they and eye opener for me-For 20 plus years-I never knew what my taped conversations had been transcribed to- and I felt very comfortable with what I had said in my Interviews-and had no reason at all to believe-that -someone would manipulate them-I just thought they would be -just my true words-after all-these were the Police I had been talking to-Right?...So what went wrong-No I do not believe there was a conspiracy or that the cops were doing a cover-up and the reason I don't believe anything like that was going on-is because when I thought back-I know Don Studt worked very hard on the Investigation of John and I know he believed John was the Occk...But he could not get the silver bullet,and he was not going to allow anyone else to solve this case...if he still had a chance...and in Don Studts defense -I need to add-Don never thought I would ever see those papers-and look it took 20 years before I did-I even believe that Don and his assistant-Were not typing up the transcripts in a malice way-How ever it was done in a unprofessional manner and along the lines of a novel-and how did that effect this case from not being solved back in 92-93-and to present? Well,when other dept . read through the transcripts -they thought they were a joke and that I just had a Love affair with Police officers in general-not one of them even stopped to think or question ( why did Don and the Chief spend so much time and travel so many miles,so many times-If there was nothing to this?) So now comes in to play the worst tool that could ever be given to a cop-THE TELEPHONE!!! I understand from my Buddy Tobias who is now deceased,That he had never called Don to talk to him about me,but he knew others that had-So that is why he didn't-but his understanding was that I just wanted to snare a Detective -and was a cop groupie-and since I had not seen the FOIA papers -I just thought Jerry Tobias was blowing smoke-So we laugh about it and that was it...Tobias did ask me -If Don ever mention anything to me about him being craze for working on this case everyday-or said anything about his being a friend of Det. Angers and thinking that he to thought Norberg was the killer,as he didn't ever think Norberg was and that he had made that clear to Ray Anger-I told him no one was making fun of him at all-Now here comes that Tool-The Telephone -again!! He said that the reason Ray never put any value on my Information-was he had called Don and Don said-You were just trying to get the attention of the Alpena Lt.-and here comes that Telephone again!! Anger called the Alpena Lt. and when he got him on the phone-He asked Ray Skiba-(These were the first words out Det. Angers mouth) Hey is this Dagner Woman Nuts? Ray told me -he said he didn't think so and that I had given the APD and him ,many tips,that solved several crimes-then Ray Anger asked the Lt. If he could send him a copy of what he had on John and even though Skiba thought that Ray had already received Johns file from him-He sent him another as I had since given him Jills map that John drew-Now here comes the Telephone Again!!! Just after this when John had his second Polygraph In Alpena and Don called me at my Daughters to say John passed that one,however the fact that he was on the original Task Force Person of Interest List-says more than-the Polygraph- SO I said did you let Chief Anderson know,he said No,I guess I better call him. Here comes that Telephone Again-So he calls Anderson-and tells him He is not our guy--but ad's -You know that Ray and Helen have some kind of thing going,she told me that her self-(No Helen did not tell him that)-and if he was using that as and excuse for not giving out any more info on Johns Investigation,because there was no value to it-Then why did he and Chief Ostin beat it back to Birmingham,so they could go search the two homes?That doesn't end the story of the Telephone by a long shot-To be continued -and what I learned about The Biggest group of gossipers that I have ever known-The men of the THIN BLUE GOSSIP LINE~UPDATE-I just learned this recently-But when Don beat it back to Birmingham to search Johns place-He searched the wrong house-He searched the Family home-NOT THE RENTAL!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 1, 2013 3:02:22 GMT -5
Thanks Helen – nothing new, lol. So “Secret Informant” now has a “name” that may or may not be xxxxxxx who may or may not know something about the OCCK, but the MSP, JC, etc…won’t give him the information “HE” wants before “HE” spills the beans.
Frivolous.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 1, 2013 3:20:41 GMT -5
Helen, I see your talking about the red fibers,what about the blue fibers that I emailed you about two weeks ago? I think they came from Chris Busch,because he always had blue blankets in his car,and I saw some in those bedroom photos also. Tess * Note: Tess I haven't even read the emails from two weeks ago yet,and I have an Interview at 9am and it is already 4/18am here now,so it will have to wait until later this afternoon, when I will post more feedback-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 1, 2013 19:31:22 GMT -5
Helen, I see your talking about the red fibers,what about the blue fibers that I emailed you about two weeks ago? I think they came from Chris Busch,because he always had blue blankets in his car,and I saw some in those bedroom photos also. Tess * Note: Tess I haven't even read the emails from two weeks ago yet,and I have an Interview at 9am and it is already 4/18am here now,so it will have to wait until later this afternoon, when I will post more feedback- Ok I viewed the photos in this video and there are 6 blue blankets and in the photos of mine -I have 7 ...so yes I will look into this-His best friend lives in town here -so it won't be a problem to check this out-- www.clickondetroit.com/news/investigations/-/1719314/7683950/-/7vclgm/-/index.html
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 2, 2013 11:33:02 GMT -5
Helen, I was on your site and read your stats,do you have any idea what Cathy's stats for her site are? Linda Note: Well it is to soon to have the true ranking as she won't have a year in until Jan.2014 ~ However it appears that she will out rank our site by a lot, as from the day she started her Blog was an instant success, and the fact that she has Historical Documents never posted on the Internet before, combined with the fact that she is a sister of a Occk victim and is giving a first account of what this horrific crime did to her family, her Blog will remain successful for many years to come,also she has a very large readership.
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