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Post by Helen Dagner on May 3, 2013 22:52:18 GMT -5
Helen,Think about this,This one is a little more difficult as to how he got Kris in the car. But, let's assume Kris has met John at the bowling alley where her Mom worked. John sees Kris at the store, and tells her something happened to her Mom and she needs to come home right now. Again, were talking about a main road in broad daylight in Berkley. Why snatch and grab? As for Tim, this is the strangest. Tim had heard the cops at school, there are now books "Don't go with strangers" being passed out at the malls, and Tim told his Dad he run like hell. Now a witness sees Tim standing by a man in a blue gremlin...why doesn't Tim scream if he feels he is in danger. Does John have a gun? Has John threatened his family? Or did John simply tell Tim he worked at Peabody's and was sent to take Tim to the restaurant where his parents were? By now all of Oakland County is watching for the killer. All suspicious activity is being reported. Every day there is news of the killings...Oakland County is in a state of panic. Mary
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 3, 2013 23:07:19 GMT -5
Cal, you asked for the Clif Notes ~Tim King, age 11 Abducted Wednesday, March 16th, vicinity of Hunter and Maple, Birmingham (15 mile and Woodward) Found on Tuesday, March 22, 1977, in the Vicinity of Gill Rd. S. of 8 Mile Rd., Livonia, Wayne County. (Close to I-275) Tim borrowed money from his Sister and took off on his skateboard to buy candy at the Hunter-Maple pharmacy just a few blocks away from his home. About the same time, Tim’s parents were sitting down to have dinner just across the street from the pharmacy. A clerk at the store saw Tim leave the pharmacy about 8:30 p.m. Tim’s parents arrived home just before 9:00 p.m. and Tim was not home. The Parents called friends and neighbors; nobody had seen Tim since he left the pharmacy. Tim’s parents reported him missing. A Witness reported seeing a boy matching Tim’s description talking with a man near a late model blue Gremlin in the Chattam parking lot next door. (Chattam’s was a grocery store) Police released a composite sketch on Friday, March 18th. On Tuesday, March 22nd at approximately 9:00 p.m., a motorist driving South on Gill Rd. between 7 and 8 mile Roads Stopped to make a U-turn and spotted Tim’s body, lying in a ditch with his skate board near by. The cause of death was determined to be between 6-8 p.m., he had been fed about 2 hours before, there were signs of sexual assault and marks indicating his hands and feet had been bound. Tim’s nails had been cleaned. Tim’s Father noted on the tape that he remembered sitting down with Tim and talking about the Oakland County Child Killings and Tim replied that he would run. Tim was in 6th grade, planned on trying out for Little League and was a personable and outgoing child. March 16th and 17th were warm and spring-like. March 18th brought bitter cold and winter weather.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 5, 2013 3:11:49 GMT -5
Helen, All this time people have assumed that the killer would need a secluded place to keep the kids. Most of the houses in the area have basements. John Couey, the freak who killed Jessica Lundsford, kept Jessie in a closet in his mobil home with other people living there. Would a tied up child be scared enough to do as they were told and keep quiet? probably. Jon
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 5, 2013 3:15:52 GMT -5
Helen, Well hell, at least they are doing something, LOL!
We know John reads the site, and chances are if someone else was involved they read the site too.
At least I don't have too much to worry about, it would be hard for them to consider me a suspect since I was only 6 at the time, LOL. Sgt.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 5, 2013 3:23:42 GMT -5
Helen, Bill worked with Jack Turner at Biff's on 15 and Telegraph. Then they both went to work at the Biff's on 8 mile and Evergreen. Jack was a cook. He accidently shot himself in the shoulder at work one day when he went to remove the gun from under the grill. He was a few years older than Bill, so maybe 18-20 in 1966 or 1967. He had whispy (whatever in the heck that means, LOL) hair kind of light in color. He thinks he lived in Potiac. He picked right up on Hastings but doesn't know why he knows the name. Ken
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 5, 2013 3:30:23 GMT -5
Helen, Very freaky and disturbing. It would be harder to hear any cries for help, not to mention an easy way to hide a kid if someone came to the door. Don
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 5, 2013 4:04:44 GMT -5
Hi Helen, The Hobby Shop in Ferndale was called Lobby Hobby, I think its important to note that John said Mark collected trains and Lobby Hobby had a blowout train room that kids were not allowed in unsupervised. I thinks the Bellinger House, or Ballinger House maybe?? Was in Royal Oak. I told you the guy I went out with drove a beige or light color car and it was brand new. I didn't think it was a Monte Carlo. The car would have been a 75 or a 76 . I went out with him between Halloween of 1975 and February of 1976. Now, the reason I think that it may have been John is because the guy was hanging out with the Troy police all the time, and had met them at a Fraternal Order of Police event or Policeman's Ball, something like that. He started hanging around at all the places they frequented and that is how I met him. After the date I turned him in to the Police (A Troy cop, I can't think of his name) and he disappeared. Now, Anyway, he talked about how they thought they had him but the license plate was 1 digit off, and some said other strange things that didn't add up or make sense. But, here is why I think they might have been the same guy. Why would John leave a "Gift" for the city of Troy like that. The Police Station is at Big Beaver and I-75. I can't help but think that the differences in Jill's death was for the cops. The guy was kind of tall and thin with short dark hair and would guess he was about a few years older (27) I cannot remember side burns or gray in his hair.) When I saw the sketch that could have been him but his hair was shorter. Somewhere, in the stack of 20,000 + Tips there may be a record of my statement but I doubt it will ever be found.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 5:18:02 GMT -5
Helen, I read Lillys book ,and was very disapointed about the things she said about you,I guess because I know none of them are true,why would she listen to a gal like this? This is a post made by reasoning at Topix years ago, to that Terri Chic, that really gives you the inside scoop on her. " Terri;
I don't want to dig up your thousands of posts here but you claimed that you did all this research for Helen. You stated not only Busch but you had dug up all the addresses of John and his family. Now you are confused over a little thing like John's own address. That address has been on Helen's site hundreds of times through the years. You claimed you corresponded with Helen for 4 years over this and you know all about her case. Something does not add up here. You may believe me but I'm sorry but I don't put any stock in anything you state. You continue to waste away all the readers here with your ramblings that go on and on repeatedly all over the place. Are you handicap? You supposely know all the OCCK key people on a personal level which includes the suspects and the investigators. You try so hard to put yourself in the middle of this whole thing and Helen's case. You would rather ramble on with your bullnuts then to spend a minute doing a google search on these addresses. Why do you feel that you have to waste these readers here with your bullnuts? Why must you feel that you have to post here more than anyone else? I don't think anyone here believes you anymore and Cyber seems to be gone. I can see why you don't have a web site. You would be the only one posting and reading it. You have spread your garbage through out this whole thread. It is pathetic and it would only take about 3 posts to cover everything you've tried to state in your thousands of posts. You have been very rude and inconsiderate to the readers here as they have to continue to weave through your garbage.
Now I've said my peace !!!" Reasoning ** Note: Lilly has apologized to me both personally and publicly -So it is case closed for me...
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 5:23:03 GMT -5
Helen,
This is what I found, Actually, she is only 1/4 mile from the Tim King drop site.
Christine Bracken Residential Listing
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 6:09:16 GMT -5
Helen, Personally, I think that all the media grandstanding is hurting the image of the families. First, it’s amazing how many people in Michigan simply don’t care about the Oakland County Child Killer Cases – they are over and done. Ask 100 people and I bet 90 of them would think they were solved with Ted, or whoever came before him. Even cops who’ve retired don’t think about it anymore. It’s 35 years in the past, and they have moved on with their lives. Even the reporters seem to be moving on, stories are recycled, if mentioned at all. It’s the boy who cried wolf too many times and readers are losing interest. Sgt.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 6:14:39 GMT -5
Helen, I notice you are deleting a lot of the older posts,do you ever plan on deleting" censuring polygrapher Patrick T. Coffey" ? Tim Note: Sure,soon as he admits to being an A-Hole....
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 6:22:27 GMT -5
Helen, It probably has to do with the DNA, I wouldn't get too excited just yet. We have seen the "Breaking News" all too often. They will probably use the new DNA they found to test it against Lawson, Lamborgine, Norberg, that guy who hung himself in Texas and the rest of the suspects that have already been paraded through the Media. I would imagine this has been in the works for a while, as the crime labs don't work too fast. I just can't see Ray Anger retiring with news on the horizon...doesn't add up. Plus, he is close to the taskforce so you know he is privileged to the inside scoop - even now. Ron
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 6:30:39 GMT -5
Ben, I have posted this artical so many times,I know it for memory,this is the time for you to put it in your own file...as I don't think I will be posting it again-The gal says-Norberg was just a regular guy/ March 2, 1989 Section: NWS Edition: METRO FINAL Page: 3A; Memo:SEE ALSO METRO EDITION PAGE 3A
OAKLAND CLUES 'BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION' SOME POLICE DOUBT NEW LEAD IN '70S CHILD KILLINGS LORI MATHEWS AND MARYANNE GEORGE , e Press Staff Writers , IE GERDES and GEORGEA KOVANIS Staff Writers
An aunt who was only 13 in 1977 when Kristine Mihelich became the third victim of the Oakland County child killer has under hypnosis been able to link the Berkley girl to a suspect, police said Wednesday. The aunt is the sole person to say a cross engraved "Kristine" that was found in the belongings of a former Detroit area autoworker after his death in 1981 was the girl's, police said.
Also, a member of the task force investigating the killings said the auto worker, David Norberg, had a sister named Kristine. Norberg was killed in a 1981 car accident in Wyoming .
Berkley police Wednesday confirmed the name of Norberg's sister, but said the sister had never owned the small cross. Police also said Mihelich's mother had no recollection of her daughter owning such a cross.
Interest in the 1976-77 slayings of four children in southern Oakland County has been rekindled this week by disclosures from Berkley police that Norberg is a suspect.
But other police who investigated the slayings are discounting the lead.
Former State Police Lt. Robert Robertson, who coordinated the task force investigating the crimes, discounted the Norberg allegations because police were not told of any missing jewelry at the time of the crime.
"You'd think that if a child regularly wore a certain piece of jewelry, the mother would know and certainly would have told us about it," Robertson said Wednesday.
"Unfortunately for the dead man's family, I believe this bit of information is being blown out of proportion. It's just one of thousands of leads that have surfaced over the years."
Norberg died when his car flipped in Recluse, Wyoming . He was 35. Norberg's wife found the cross while going through her husband's belongings and gave the cross to his sister, Berkley Detective Ray Anger said.
The sister, saying the cross was not hers, turned it over to Sterling Heights Police Detective Kim Price last year, Anger said.
He said that in early January, the aunt identified the cross as belonging to her niece, believed to be the third of the killer's four victims.
Anger said Norberg, a former Army private who lived in Warren in the mid-1970s, was investigated and questioned three times about the killings, based on tips and his resemblance to a composite sketch of a suspect.
According to the Michigan Department of Corrections, Norberg had no criminal record, and others connected with the still-active task force are skeptical.
Berkley's findings are being "blown out of proportion," said Lt. Joe Krease of the Michigan State Police. Krease said after being notified of the Berkley investigation, "From what we were told and what we've seen, it certainly is not viable as evidence."
Jerry Tobin, director of the Southfield Department of Public Safety and former task force member, said information known only to certain task force members had eliminated Norberg as a suspect.
Anger acknowledged that the evidence produced only a suspect in Mihelich's slaying, not a solution to the killings that terrorized metropolitan Detroit .
Mihelich, of Berkley , was found 19 days after she disappeared on Jan. 2, 1977. She was 10. Her parents, now divorced, have no comment.
But a woman identifying herself as Daniel Mihelich's wife said her husband was upset over resurfacing news accounts.
"It's been a long 12 years. This has happened several times over the years," she said. "He wants to forget all this and put it behind him. The memories he has are extremely painful ones and it doesn't get any better as the years go on. He wants to get on with his life."
Norberg relatives could not be reached for comment, but Carol McGee of Gillette , Wyo. , former resident of Recluse, said "David was just a regular guy."
Said McGee: "Dave spent a lot of time with my daughter and his daughter and two other girls about the same age, and a lot of time he was alone with them. There was never any problem."
Kristine Mihelich
***
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 22:16:46 GMT -5
Helen, Been doing a little research.Bruce Leonard Danto, It appears he worked with LE in the 70's, later specialized and wrote many books on suicide. Last reference I can find for him had him out in Fullerton, CA in a partnership with a man named Tom Steed. Looks like they ran a private investigation firm called Death Investigation International. An interesting point is that the OCCK killings seem to somehow be connected to church. I say this because of the Sunday/Wednesday abductions, and then the fact that at least the two boys were Catholic. Bruce Danto is Jewish. So, how would this tid-bit fit in? I have read in your notes that John had contact with Danto, and then I have also read that the killer supposedly contacted Danto. Add in the theories about B.L (Bruce Leonard Danto) and Bruce Lane, and I forget the name off Gill road but again, it was BL. Is there a twisted religious connection there, or simply convenience because Danto was working with LE? Jim
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2013 22:22:03 GMT -5
Hi Helen, Here is what I have come up with so far. I am missing something and I just can't seem to get my finger on it. Woodward Ave. is a major road running from the heart of Detroit to Pontiac, MI. Telegraph and Gratiot are similar roads. Gratiot and Woodward were the two main roads for cruising - not sure if this makes a difference yet. Southfield is a road up by 10 mile, but turns into a highway south of 8 mile road. (2 miles). It appears that Tim was left just off I-275, and we know Jill was left on I-75. There is a pattern with Mark and Kristine. 9 mile/10 mile, and 12 mile/13 Mile. Here we touch on Southfield and then Telegraph. It takes a lot of guts to pull a car on the side of a major highway, walk a child to a snowbank and shoot her with a shotgun. All of this just a stones throw from the police department. Where were the snowprints, how did nobody hear anything and more important, why did the killer change his pattern? Do we know where Cynthia was taken from? I am starting to believe that the OCCK also killed Cynthia, and somehow his plan went terribly wrong so he killed her sooner than anticipated. Just a gut feeling here, but I really think that Jill was taken at 11 mile. Either that, or it could have been Cynthia but I don't think so. I somehow think that John thought he was moving each child up a mile, until Tim, who would have come from a wealthy, or at least comfortable family. Even though Livonia was a nice area I think the South of 8 mile rd. drop off means something. With each mile rd. off Woodward the property values rise. Ron
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