Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 18, 2011 23:07:53 GMT -5
On March 16, 1977, I had plans to go to the Ice Capades with Xxxx and his father’s family. Xxxx parents were divorced. Xxxx came to pick me up around 4:45 – 5:00. We went back to his house at Xxx Madison to wait for his father to come get us. Tim Xxxxxxx was NOT home when Xxxxxx left to pick me up, but was supposed to be home before 4:45 to get ready. Tim X was with your Tim and another boy (can’t recall the name now, but have it somewhere) playing near Hunter Maple Pharmacy. Anyway, Tim X. was home when we returned to the house and we all left for the Ice Capades between 5:15 and 5:30.
On March 17, 1977, during lunch break – we had gone to McD’s – it came across the radio that your brother was missing. When I returned to school (BUNA was going on), the word was out. The rest of the days were a blur. Surely you must know how deeply every parent was affected during those days as well as the young who were confused and scared and the older (teenagers) who had a first dose of the golden dome of Birmingham starting to crumble.
I don’t remember how many days later, but at some point, Xxxx told me Tim X. had been with your brother that afternoon. Several days later – after the boys’ names were published in the paper (for which there was a complaint filed somewhere), but before, I believe, your Tim was discovered, a phone call came to the Xxxxxx home. At the time I was under the impression that someone had called Tim X to talk about Tim K. I only know this because Xxxx called me the same night (?) or maybe the next and told me that our conversation was being recorded by the police and why. I think the tap stayed on for 3 days, but there wasn’t another call.
His mother, Polly Xxxxxx, had been in touch with your mom early on. She knew the boys had been playing together near Hunter Maple Pharmacy. In fact, I think your mother even called Polly the evening of the 16th looking for Tim K. I know for a fact that the OCCK killings haunted and puzzled Polly for the rest of her life. Often, while visiting us, she would tell me the events of March 16, 1977 from her perspective as she was convinced she had seen the man who abducted your brother. This is how her story went.
Around 4:00 p.m. it occurred to her that with everyone being out of the house that night, it would be a good time to color her hair. She drove up to the HM Pharmacy, parked in back, and entered through the back door. If you remember, there was a narrow hallway you had to walk through before it opened up to the pharmacy area in the back. She was walking down the hall and bumped into a man in his late 20’s or early 30’s (she thought) and he seemed startled by the incident. He stood there for an extended period of time looking at her before she moved past. He had dark hair and she thought sideburns – but does not remember them being the big mutton chopped sideburns described in the composite sketch. She felt unsettled about the incident, bought her hair dye and drove home.
At 4:30 she started watching out the front window as she was expecting Tim X. to come home and get ready for the Ice Capades. He still wasn’t home when it was time for Xxxxx to get me so she sat at the window waiting and watching. She noticed a light colored car drive by (NOT A GREMLIN) because it was the second time it had driven by slowly while she sat waiting. So, she watched it turn right on Hunter. From her kitchen she followed it until it turned on the next street. She couldn’t see it for a time, but then she spotted it slowly driving by Poppleton Park , out o Madison and back in front of the house. By this time, she was standing at the front door –with it open – and as the car again passed in font of the house, she blatantly stared at the driver. He turned and looked at her too. When they made eye contact, she realized it was the same man she had run into at the pharmacy. She felt sure he realized this too. Tim X showed up moments later, Polly felt relieved and let the whole thing go until the next day when your brother’s disappearance was reported. She contacted the police, told them her experience and was never contacted again.
She never wavered from that story and every few years would call the police to see if they wanted her story again.
In 1997, Polly was diagnosed with Xxxxxxx Cancer (30 days from diagnosis to death.) I was blessed with the gift of time and was able to spend a good deal of her last days caring for and talking with her. There were times of lucidity as well as times of confusion and sadly, much pain. One night, in an “out of sorts”, incoherent state, she thought she was in her basement and she asked me to help her “move boxes” to get her things in order. I did. As I sat with her, she would describe a box location and tell me what it was and where to move it – I would verbally tell her I was doing it and then she would go to another box. There was one box in particular she wanted only me to handle. She asked me not to lose it and not to let anyone forget about its importance. I readily agreed and promised. Whatever it was important.
After she died, we (her sons and daughters – in – law) were cleaning out her home (which was in Ann Arbor .) My sister-in-law was going through boxes in the basement – pitching most of the stuff because it was moldy. She came upon a box of newspapers that had been saved and asked Tim X. what to do. He looked through them, discovering they were all about the OCCK and decided he would pitch them. He felt he had lived through that era and didn’t want to be reminded. It occurred to me at that moment that perhaps that was Polly’s important box and I wanted to keep it, but Tim X. was adamant that it should be pitched and I couldn’t hurt him by insisting it be saved. He has his own issues with what happened in 1977. However, it came to me with absolute clarity that Polly wanted her desire to see closure to your brother’s murder carried on. And I had promised her that I would make sure of it.
In 2003, I discovered Helen’s story on the web. I pondered it. I was intrigued by it. But, I dismissed it. In 2004, I again did a search, found her original story again and the added updates which made me think that maybe there was more to it. It took me about 6 months to get up the guts to contact her – which I did through a post on the Dreambook site. I called myself Casual Observer. I didn’t reveal anything that I knew until I was sure that she was not, in fact, writing a book. Helen contacted me privately and started sharing information from her notes and while I can’t remember the exact piece that startled me, it allowed me to share Polly’s story more in-depth. I never revealed anyone’s name (including mine) other than Tim X first name. I know that names can be found easily through email addresses, but Helen never once referred to me or any of my family members by name – even Tim. One of the pieces that rang true was John’s lack of ownership of a blue Gremlin and that he had been startled by a woman in the pharmacy. From there I asked Helen if John had ever called victim’s families. She said he had and she said that she had actually taken a list of people he had called from his apartment. I asked her to email me the list – she sent some of the following names : Bruce Danto, Chief Tobias, Mr. Robinson, and a few others and Xxxx Xxxxxxxxx. Now, here is the odd part. I told her that Tim X. had received a strange phone call concerning your brother in the days after he was abducted, but the truth was that phone call actually came to Xxxx. Here’s how I know this.
About 13 years ago, Tim X and his wife were visiting us. I don’t know how it started, but a discussion of your brother came up and it was clear that Tim X. had never mentioned the OCCK to his wife. . . and now she wanted to know. Tim X has very scattered memories of the day your Tim was abducted and he has a selective memory of what his mother told him and refuses to acknowledge that the incident has had any lasting effect on him – although I can assure it does starting with his choice to never discuss it. BUT, he had a few beers that night and so was prompted to tell the story of the phone call with amazing clarity and an unspoken directive that it would be the last time he ever discussed it.
The phone rang one evening somewhere around or just before 6 p.m. XXXX answered the phone. The caller asked Xxxxx if he wanted to talk about Tim. Xxxx misunderstood and told Tim X. the phone was for him. Tim X. took the phone and the caller said, “Xxxx? “
Tim X. said, “No, Tim.” The caller was quiet for a minute then proceeded to ask Tim (as if he knew him) what he thought had happened to Tim King. Tim X, frightened and confused, pulled the phone away from his ear. Polly saw the puzzled look on Tim X.’s face and grabbed the phone. When she said “hello” – the caller waited a second and then hung up. She asked Tim X. what happened and he told her the caller asked for Xxxx and wanted to talk about Tim King. The caller never identified himself and Polly called the police. There was a series of hang-up calls the next day or two – then nothing. At the time it was thought to have been a reporter because the boys who were with your brother that day had their names published in the paper.
Conclusive? Not at all, but rather odd.
Helen eventually told me ( I think when she was comfortable that I wasn’t seeking glory) the name of John. Xxxx Xxxxxxxx. He went to Brother Rice, but his youngest brother Xxxxxx went to Seaholm. There is no official photo of Xxxx in the yearbook, but there are 2 candids in the 1978 edition (his senior year) that I have scanned. When I saw them, I remembered him. He played violin in the orchestra ( candid), and worked in a market ( the other candid.) After extensive searching I found info on him, his family tree, his careers, and oddly, that he graduated in September of 1978. . . wasn’t that unusual?
He claims to be an actor and to have had a reoccurring role on West Wing as well as being a theologian and teacher. I checked SAG records of members and couldn’t find a Xxxx, Xxxxxx, or any other variation of Xxxx Xxxxxxx in the membership. Nor, when I searched cast records for WW from the beginning, could I find any mention of Xxxx Xxxxxx OR the role of “Navy Captain.” He does have a website dedicated to Fibromyalgia based on this captain at Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. It also lists his resumes. He seems slimy. On the Classmates website, he used to have a profile that said he was an engineer in Georgia – which is really odd as that is where John was living then too. That has since been removed – somewhere in the last 6 months.
Anyway, after weighing all the garbage that is out there on the Oakland County child killer, I have come to this-
Helen Dagner has never changed her story about John. She has lots of information that has never been published. She has spent countless hours trying to bring about an end. And, she has never breached her word with me about not revealing me to the internet world, giving out my name, email, or anything else ( unless, like with you, I have directed her to do so.) She has stuck with her story for almost 17 years. She hasn’t written a book or a screen play. She hasn’t tried to engage the press with sensationalistic material (and there was at least one time she could have.) She has no self serving, monetary motivation that I have detected in the 2 years I have been in contact with her. So, I have to say, I believe her.
There are others who profess to be extremely knowledgeable about the OCCK and Helen has been involved in some pi-ss-ing contests with them. However, they are no longer making posts. . . and Helen still is. Take that for what it is worth. Lastly, when I first shared Helen’s story with my husband – he was angry. Why was there not an arrest? Why can someone say all she has said and nothing happened? And, why was I jeopardizing our family safety by communicating with all these internet crackpots? One of these crackpots is a man named Kevin Rundle ( screen name Kdogg) who took it upon himself to cyberstalk me. I had to remove my name from classmates.com, the Seaholm Alumni website and block my email. He had the audacity to even re-post the boys names who were with your brother that day and ask me why that hit so close to home. It was at that time that I stopped posting (for the most part), but kept in touch with Helen only. Again, she has never betrayed me and I value our relationship. I have chosen not to share any of this with Xxxx – only if it becomes essential in bringing out a conviction to the OCCK.
There is so much more I can and will share if you would like me to do so. I have known how to contact you since your 20 year HS reunion, but have chosen not to as I did not want to bring about emotions or ideas that would create eventual heartache for you. As for contacting Xxxxx . . he has never seemed approachable about the subject and I have always felt it a sign to leave him alone.
Your family suffered untold horrors at the hands of a monster. I can never change that, but if I have the power to offer insight, integrity, and empathy with my knowledge that will bring you closure, I will do it until no more can be done.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sincerely,Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On March 17, 1977, during lunch break – we had gone to McD’s – it came across the radio that your brother was missing. When I returned to school (BUNA was going on), the word was out. The rest of the days were a blur. Surely you must know how deeply every parent was affected during those days as well as the young who were confused and scared and the older (teenagers) who had a first dose of the golden dome of Birmingham starting to crumble.
I don’t remember how many days later, but at some point, Xxxx told me Tim X. had been with your brother that afternoon. Several days later – after the boys’ names were published in the paper (for which there was a complaint filed somewhere), but before, I believe, your Tim was discovered, a phone call came to the Xxxxxx home. At the time I was under the impression that someone had called Tim X to talk about Tim K. I only know this because Xxxx called me the same night (?) or maybe the next and told me that our conversation was being recorded by the police and why. I think the tap stayed on for 3 days, but there wasn’t another call.
His mother, Polly Xxxxxx, had been in touch with your mom early on. She knew the boys had been playing together near Hunter Maple Pharmacy. In fact, I think your mother even called Polly the evening of the 16th looking for Tim K. I know for a fact that the OCCK killings haunted and puzzled Polly for the rest of her life. Often, while visiting us, she would tell me the events of March 16, 1977 from her perspective as she was convinced she had seen the man who abducted your brother. This is how her story went.
Around 4:00 p.m. it occurred to her that with everyone being out of the house that night, it would be a good time to color her hair. She drove up to the HM Pharmacy, parked in back, and entered through the back door. If you remember, there was a narrow hallway you had to walk through before it opened up to the pharmacy area in the back. She was walking down the hall and bumped into a man in his late 20’s or early 30’s (she thought) and he seemed startled by the incident. He stood there for an extended period of time looking at her before she moved past. He had dark hair and she thought sideburns – but does not remember them being the big mutton chopped sideburns described in the composite sketch. She felt unsettled about the incident, bought her hair dye and drove home.
At 4:30 she started watching out the front window as she was expecting Tim X. to come home and get ready for the Ice Capades. He still wasn’t home when it was time for Xxxxx to get me so she sat at the window waiting and watching. She noticed a light colored car drive by (NOT A GREMLIN) because it was the second time it had driven by slowly while she sat waiting. So, she watched it turn right on Hunter. From her kitchen she followed it until it turned on the next street. She couldn’t see it for a time, but then she spotted it slowly driving by Poppleton Park , out o Madison and back in front of the house. By this time, she was standing at the front door –with it open – and as the car again passed in font of the house, she blatantly stared at the driver. He turned and looked at her too. When they made eye contact, she realized it was the same man she had run into at the pharmacy. She felt sure he realized this too. Tim X showed up moments later, Polly felt relieved and let the whole thing go until the next day when your brother’s disappearance was reported. She contacted the police, told them her experience and was never contacted again.
She never wavered from that story and every few years would call the police to see if they wanted her story again.
In 1997, Polly was diagnosed with Xxxxxxx Cancer (30 days from diagnosis to death.) I was blessed with the gift of time and was able to spend a good deal of her last days caring for and talking with her. There were times of lucidity as well as times of confusion and sadly, much pain. One night, in an “out of sorts”, incoherent state, she thought she was in her basement and she asked me to help her “move boxes” to get her things in order. I did. As I sat with her, she would describe a box location and tell me what it was and where to move it – I would verbally tell her I was doing it and then she would go to another box. There was one box in particular she wanted only me to handle. She asked me not to lose it and not to let anyone forget about its importance. I readily agreed and promised. Whatever it was important.
After she died, we (her sons and daughters – in – law) were cleaning out her home (which was in Ann Arbor .) My sister-in-law was going through boxes in the basement – pitching most of the stuff because it was moldy. She came upon a box of newspapers that had been saved and asked Tim X. what to do. He looked through them, discovering they were all about the OCCK and decided he would pitch them. He felt he had lived through that era and didn’t want to be reminded. It occurred to me at that moment that perhaps that was Polly’s important box and I wanted to keep it, but Tim X. was adamant that it should be pitched and I couldn’t hurt him by insisting it be saved. He has his own issues with what happened in 1977. However, it came to me with absolute clarity that Polly wanted her desire to see closure to your brother’s murder carried on. And I had promised her that I would make sure of it.
In 2003, I discovered Helen’s story on the web. I pondered it. I was intrigued by it. But, I dismissed it. In 2004, I again did a search, found her original story again and the added updates which made me think that maybe there was more to it. It took me about 6 months to get up the guts to contact her – which I did through a post on the Dreambook site. I called myself Casual Observer. I didn’t reveal anything that I knew until I was sure that she was not, in fact, writing a book. Helen contacted me privately and started sharing information from her notes and while I can’t remember the exact piece that startled me, it allowed me to share Polly’s story more in-depth. I never revealed anyone’s name (including mine) other than Tim X first name. I know that names can be found easily through email addresses, but Helen never once referred to me or any of my family members by name – even Tim. One of the pieces that rang true was John’s lack of ownership of a blue Gremlin and that he had been startled by a woman in the pharmacy. From there I asked Helen if John had ever called victim’s families. She said he had and she said that she had actually taken a list of people he had called from his apartment. I asked her to email me the list – she sent some of the following names : Bruce Danto, Chief Tobias, Mr. Robinson, and a few others and Xxxx Xxxxxxxxx. Now, here is the odd part. I told her that Tim X. had received a strange phone call concerning your brother in the days after he was abducted, but the truth was that phone call actually came to Xxxx. Here’s how I know this.
About 13 years ago, Tim X and his wife were visiting us. I don’t know how it started, but a discussion of your brother came up and it was clear that Tim X. had never mentioned the OCCK to his wife. . . and now she wanted to know. Tim X has very scattered memories of the day your Tim was abducted and he has a selective memory of what his mother told him and refuses to acknowledge that the incident has had any lasting effect on him – although I can assure it does starting with his choice to never discuss it. BUT, he had a few beers that night and so was prompted to tell the story of the phone call with amazing clarity and an unspoken directive that it would be the last time he ever discussed it.
The phone rang one evening somewhere around or just before 6 p.m. XXXX answered the phone. The caller asked Xxxxx if he wanted to talk about Tim. Xxxx misunderstood and told Tim X. the phone was for him. Tim X. took the phone and the caller said, “Xxxx? “
Tim X. said, “No, Tim.” The caller was quiet for a minute then proceeded to ask Tim (as if he knew him) what he thought had happened to Tim King. Tim X, frightened and confused, pulled the phone away from his ear. Polly saw the puzzled look on Tim X.’s face and grabbed the phone. When she said “hello” – the caller waited a second and then hung up. She asked Tim X. what happened and he told her the caller asked for Xxxx and wanted to talk about Tim King. The caller never identified himself and Polly called the police. There was a series of hang-up calls the next day or two – then nothing. At the time it was thought to have been a reporter because the boys who were with your brother that day had their names published in the paper.
Conclusive? Not at all, but rather odd.
Helen eventually told me ( I think when she was comfortable that I wasn’t seeking glory) the name of John. Xxxx Xxxxxxxx. He went to Brother Rice, but his youngest brother Xxxxxx went to Seaholm. There is no official photo of Xxxx in the yearbook, but there are 2 candids in the 1978 edition (his senior year) that I have scanned. When I saw them, I remembered him. He played violin in the orchestra ( candid), and worked in a market ( the other candid.) After extensive searching I found info on him, his family tree, his careers, and oddly, that he graduated in September of 1978. . . wasn’t that unusual?
He claims to be an actor and to have had a reoccurring role on West Wing as well as being a theologian and teacher. I checked SAG records of members and couldn’t find a Xxxx, Xxxxxx, or any other variation of Xxxx Xxxxxxx in the membership. Nor, when I searched cast records for WW from the beginning, could I find any mention of Xxxx Xxxxxx OR the role of “Navy Captain.” He does have a website dedicated to Fibromyalgia based on this captain at Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. It also lists his resumes. He seems slimy. On the Classmates website, he used to have a profile that said he was an engineer in Georgia – which is really odd as that is where John was living then too. That has since been removed – somewhere in the last 6 months.
Anyway, after weighing all the garbage that is out there on the Oakland County child killer, I have come to this-
Helen Dagner has never changed her story about John. She has lots of information that has never been published. She has spent countless hours trying to bring about an end. And, she has never breached her word with me about not revealing me to the internet world, giving out my name, email, or anything else ( unless, like with you, I have directed her to do so.) She has stuck with her story for almost 17 years. She hasn’t written a book or a screen play. She hasn’t tried to engage the press with sensationalistic material (and there was at least one time she could have.) She has no self serving, monetary motivation that I have detected in the 2 years I have been in contact with her. So, I have to say, I believe her.
There are others who profess to be extremely knowledgeable about the OCCK and Helen has been involved in some pi-ss-ing contests with them. However, they are no longer making posts. . . and Helen still is. Take that for what it is worth. Lastly, when I first shared Helen’s story with my husband – he was angry. Why was there not an arrest? Why can someone say all she has said and nothing happened? And, why was I jeopardizing our family safety by communicating with all these internet crackpots? One of these crackpots is a man named Kevin Rundle ( screen name Kdogg) who took it upon himself to cyberstalk me. I had to remove my name from classmates.com, the Seaholm Alumni website and block my email. He had the audacity to even re-post the boys names who were with your brother that day and ask me why that hit so close to home. It was at that time that I stopped posting (for the most part), but kept in touch with Helen only. Again, she has never betrayed me and I value our relationship. I have chosen not to share any of this with Xxxx – only if it becomes essential in bringing out a conviction to the OCCK.
There is so much more I can and will share if you would like me to do so. I have known how to contact you since your 20 year HS reunion, but have chosen not to as I did not want to bring about emotions or ideas that would create eventual heartache for you. As for contacting Xxxxx . . he has never seemed approachable about the subject and I have always felt it a sign to leave him alone.
Your family suffered untold horrors at the hands of a monster. I can never change that, but if I have the power to offer insight, integrity, and empathy with my knowledge that will bring you closure, I will do it until no more can be done.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sincerely,Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
