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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 10, 2011 19:17:30 GMT -5
Write Your U.S.Senator?-If It's Levin-Forget !! 2003-09-04 14:51:10 serialkillerfacts [View]
Want to write your representative in Lansing or Washington,D.C.-and not quite sure where to send the letter---If It's to a Michigan official...and you want to talk about--The Oakland County Child Killer...File 13-or the North Pole,will give the same results---Imagine a U.S. Senator,who get's three pc.of mail...about a Serialkiller...and doesn't have someone in his office-answer the mail.Both Todd and I have sent Michigan U.S.Senator Carl Levin our concerns about the Oakland County Child Killer...you can read the letters on the 1976-77 Oakland County Child Slaying -site--8000,people already have...I was so sure that he would answer my letter...as Fran and I worked our butt's off to get him elected,the first time...but there you have it...so much for ---one hand washes the other...right?...In Michigan It's not just Carl Levin...he is just the one I thought would care...The only one to answer...was now Gov.Jennifer M. Granholm..and she was the AG at the time...and running for election for Gov....I'm telling you Michigan officials just don't care if the OCCK cases are solved...I'm just wondering...If there ever was a time that they did...after all none of the murdered children were their son or daughter...well they weren't mine either...but since I met the Killer..and know this case Is able to be solved...I do care..and so do thousands,of people that read every word that Todd and I post...If you want to see who cares-go to The Oakland County Child Killer-Dreambook...read their storys-Post your story,there or on this site...Want to get and Inside look at the Michigan State Police..and what they think of the Unsolved Child Murders...read Todds Post--SHOULD I JUST GO OUT AND SHOOT HER...CHICKEN BONE And ALL...You can find all Info...by going to Google Search....Best Regards Helen Dagner
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 10, 2011 19:19:20 GMT -5
Oakland County Officials Reaction-Shocking.... 2003-08-30 20:24:20 anonymous2 [View]
...It Is TRUE-The REACTION of Oakland County Officials is even more shocking...then my tip about John and the 300 -plus matches to the murders of these four children.Oakland County Officials have been able to effectively kill any media inquiries generated in the hopes to spark movement on the OCCK murders...for now---altho..this would not be the first time a jurisdiction has let murderers go unpunished...you can-not imagine a GOOD TIP would go unchecked...Todd and I have tried desperately to pass along this information...we both do indeed realize --even more now..than ever..that this is a Serialkiller that Oakland County Officials,would like to forget...but it simply can-not be...as Todd and I...are not going to let them...Oakland County prosecutors It would seem have lost their appetite for this matter---you can help them to -re-think...If you have a minute,please add your story-or view to the DREAMBOOK...you don't have to sign your name...we just want to hear from you.....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 10, 2011 19:21:33 GMT -5
It's All About You-Oakland County Child Killer 2003-08-13 19:03:14 helendagner [View]
Chase writes...I was born in 1977...my brother was six years older,his Mom was terrified..she kept us close to her and never let us be on our own,,,,,,,during the time of the OCCK...she is still upset that no one ever solved this case....we are interested in finding out who did this...Just go to Google...or stop back at this site...and will keep you up to date...
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 11, 2011 21:33:11 GMT -5
Facts we know: John spent 9 months talking in depth about the OCCK killings. He gave you info never befor published. You saw things ( papers, books and a manicure kit) with interesting or odd subject matter as well as an unusual storage place for the manicure kit. You had the BPD come down and investigate ( we won't discuss the quality of said invetsigation) and we know that John was poly'd at that time. We know that he was questioned in 77 and 78.then in 91 and 2008 We know that Chris Busch was the same age as John and was a neighbor of his. We know that he was rich beyond belief and spent a large amount of time in the home while his parents were in Europe and Florida. We know that he was a sexual deviant sicko. We know he committed suicide in the home shortly after the Tim King murder. We know that Busch sometimes used boys to lure other boys to him. So. . .here goes: What if Busch was using XxxxX as a lure? He was a pretty boy. It is my opinion that as an adult he is horribly screwed up and, as I have said before, continues to reinvent himself in an effort to escape who he really is. He suffers from a disease that is often associated with long term stress and I think he is gay or Bisexual. So, let's say he was sexually abused by Xxxxx ( or worse in a relationship) and Xxxx found out. What if Xxxxx found out and a) Blackmailed the Busch Family? b) Felt that killing the kids would protect his brother from being an accomplice? c) Was in for the thrill of the kill? To ease his own views of unfairness? What if Busch was also at the water tower when Anthony Mitchell fell to his death? What if Xxxx pushed that kid and Xxxxx knew and never said anything, just held it over Xxxxx head? What if the trade off was Xxxx? What if Xxxx did the killing because Xxxxxwas holding him psychologically hostage? What if John did the abducting? With Xxxx? What if Busch held the kids at his house instead of the rental? What if they used both places? What if Busch did the killing and cleaning and John did the dumping? Busch worked in a nursing home and would have a fair knowledge of medical disinfection. Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx What if the trace evidence that may exist on the contents can be directly linked to Busch? That would be an absolute connection between John and Chris. I know LE knows you have something, but they don't know exactly what, yes? What if you are in possession of not only the smoking gun, but the possible bullet too? Since we know they are looking at Busch ( right, that is what Xxxxx said?) - you probably have evidence that would connect the two. There is just no way John made this up. He is up to his eyeballs in this somehow. Also of note, both Mitchell's father and Busch's fathers were huge execs at GM. It is very possible that Chris and Anthony were friends. What if they took him up there for some deviant sexual activity and then dumped him? What if that started their hunger for sex and murder? I know this is the stuff of fiction, but does art imitate life or vice versa? Finally, I wonder what the time frame was between Busch's suicide and Xxxx Xxxxxxxx sudden move out west? Like I said these are just swirling thoughts but they kept me awake ALL NIGHT! Xxxx Xxxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 17, 2011 1:25:36 GMT -5
I have spinned my wheels so many times about the MSP. After a while I just get a headache thinking about it, but there are a number of possibilities and factors that just continue to jump out at me. #1, Gray is technically entitled to retire, but due to his age he still wants to work and maybe needs the benefits. They give him the OCCK stuff and basically say "good luck." Think about this: his job goes away if this case gets solved. Now maybe I'm wrong, and they would just give him other cold cases, but it does make you think. I also think Gray has many years of experience, NONE of it in examining cold cases. He may not know what in the hell to do. Plus, it sounds like he has a huge ego and is an a-hole, so he's not exactly going to take advice. #2--Robertson. Very disturbing to me that they would put him on this. From what I've heard, he is a decent person, as was his father, but jesus christ, talk about an appearance of impropriety. Like the son is going to hammer the dad, especially a LE son/LE dad deal. Not to mention that I think for a lot of these guys it is borderline impossible for them to think outside of the box. (As one of my brothers who met Cory pointed out, thank god for him.) The mindset is just amazing. Trust all the work that was done before and think like the initial task force did. Don't think independently. They almost have operated from an assumption of "this will never be solved." The last time I checked, making assumptions like this about anything results in failure every time. #3--Obvious f-----up and unpleasant need for explanation. Jesus, Helen, they talked to John not once, but at least twice. He passed a poly. He walked. Whoever committed this crime HAD to have been interviewed by the task force or some cop shop and rejected as a suspect. Like that book by Robert Keppel says, it's always the case that in these serial killer situations, the guy crosses paths with police at some point and walks away unscathed until much later, when someone finally puts 2 and 2 together. So, how will the MSP ever handle having the guy slip through their fingers? They haven't handled anything else well; I'm sure they would f--- up this public relations nightmare as well. #4--The dildos at Oakland County. Do you honestly think those f----ing light-weights at the prosecutor's office are offering any guidance or suggestions? All they do is opine for the press when somebody tries to come up with something--"OH NO, it couldn't be this; it couldn't be that." Oakland County = girl thingys. Sorry, but it's the truth. It's the Keystone Prosecutors, along with, I'm sorry to say--the Keystone O.C. Cops.
So, there's my rant to start off the weekend. We'll never know what motivates these people or what their view of the world is. Sometimes it makes me want to come out of my skin, but no one in my world is very sympathetic to that feeling, so I just have to get over it. It's crazy and a downer, but if you told someone who knew nothing about these cases about what has transpired, they wouldn't believe you. No wonder people think we're crazy. It's the Alice in Wonderland of cold cases. Cathy
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 17, 2011 1:31:50 GMT -5
Elizabeth <coldserialnot@yaho ,,, Xxxxcom> wrote:your serialchic hotmail ? Have you ever paid to have a background check on Mr. Johnny-Boy?? I see his SS# and last name come up as valid when I do a check, but I sure don't have the $100 it takes. Just wondered if you've ever done one of those? Oh, and do you know where he's at now? ~E
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 17, 2011 20:50:52 GMT -5
Exhumation set for today in Oakland child killings Wyoming body may hold clues in '70s mystery; debate lingers August 31, 1999 BY BRIAN MURPHY, JULIE EDGAR AND HUGH McDIARMID JR. FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS RECLUSE, Wyo. -- Beneath a sloping patch of sun-scorched grassland, Berkley Detective Ray Anger hopes to uncover the answer to a mystery that terrified a generation of Oakland County children and parents and tormented authorities for more than two decades. THE VICTIMS Mark Stebbins, 12, Ferndale -- Last seen walking home from 9 Mile and Livernois on Feb. 15, 1976; his body was found four days later in the parking lot of a Southfield office complex. He had been suffocated. Jill Robinson, 12, Royal Oak -- Ran away from home after an argument with her mother on Dec. 22, 1976; her body was found four days later off I-75 near Big Beaver in Troy. She had been shot in the head. Kristine Mihelich, 10, Berkley -- Last seen at a 7-Eleven store on 12 Mile near Coolidge on Jan. 2, 1977; her body was found 19 days later in the snow off Bruce Road near Telegraph and 12 Mile in Franklin. She had been suffocated. Timothy King, 11, Birmingham -- Last seen talking to a white man in a blue Gremlin in a pharmacy parking lot near Maple and Woodward on March 16, 1977; his body was found five days later, 100 yards south of 8 Mile on Gill Road in Livonia. He had been suffocated. But some veteran investigators who have hunted the Oakland County Child Killer for 23 years are skeptical that skeletal remains of former Warren autoworker David Norberg will solve the mystery. Norberg's body will be pried from the Recluse Cemetery this morning to compare his DNA with hair found on the body of one of four youngsters who were kidnapped and killed in 1976-77. Anger has pursued Norberg for more than 10 years. A cross that was identified as belonging to one of the victims was found among his possessions after he died in a 1981 car crash in northeast Wyoming. Norberg was questioned several times during the search and once was cleared as a suspect. "I don't want to sound like a wet blanket. There are coincidences, but there are a lot of people who have those coincidences," Birmingham Police Cmdr. Don Studt said Monday. Studt, one of more than 200 officers who formed a task force to investigate the slayings, praised Anger as a pit bull who has never stopped working the cases. "I hope there's some conclusive action either way." From February 1976 to March 1977, the bodies of Mark Stebbins, 12, of Ferndale; Jill Robinson, 12, of Royal Oak; Kristine Mihelich, 10, of Berkley; and Timothy King, 11, of Birmingham were discovered fully clothed along roads in or near Oakland County. The children had been snatched off the streets, held captive for four to 19 days, and fed and bathed before they were killed, evidence showed. The two boys were sexually assaulted, police reports said. Fear-gripped parents locked doors and lectured children about being enticed by strangers as the task force fielded hundreds of tips and set up a massive dragnet. As quickly as the killings began, they ended, and by the end of the '70s, some investigators wondered if they would ever be solved. Despite the doubts, Anger said he is convinced that the cross found in Norberg's possessions belonged to Kristine Mihelich. Her mother did not remember the cross, which was engraved with "Kristine." But it was identified under hypnosis by an aunt. "It was a prize from the Romeo Peach Festival carnival, and she detailed what the engraving on the cross looked like. She hadn't seen it in 15 years," Anger said Monday. What's more, Norberg bore a resemblance to a sketch of the suspect made after Timothy King's murder. Timothy was last seen talking to a man in a blue American Motors Gremlin; Norberg drove a similar car at the time. "The very first investigators cleared him, but they never talked to him; they talked to his wife," Anger said. "Based on that conversation, they cleared him. Then they went back and reinterviewed him, and this guy did not come up with the right answers." Others aren't so certain. Investigators believed the killer lured the children before abducting them. Norberg drank heavily, used drugs and carried himself in a way that wouldn't endear him to children, Studt said. Jerry Tobias, a Birmingham child psychologist and former task force member, interviewed Norberg in the late '70s and came to the same conclusion. "He wasn't the kind of guy I'd think kids would respond to," Tobias said. To escape police scrutiny, Norberg, his daughter and wife, Sharon, moved to Recluse in 1980 during an oil boom in the isolated area of cattle farms and coal mining pits. Carol McGee's daughter was a sixth-grade classmate of Norberg's daughter, Yvonne, in Recluse. Norberg routinely drove the kids 25 miles to basketball practices and took them fishing. "After the detectives started calling me in 1986, I asked my daughter if he had given her any reason to believe he was dangerous," McGee said. "My daughter said, 'What the hell are you talking about?' " At the cemetery Monday, a worker mowed the dry, brown grass near Norberg's tombstone, a modest slab of granite inscribed, "Pvt. U.S. Army, Vietnam," in anticipation of a media onslaught. Anger and a contingent of Oakland County officials are to oversee the exhumation. The attention unsettled the quiet county of 32,000, where no one can recall an exhumation. For Anger, the genetic sleuthing is part of a drive to solve Kristine Mihelich's 1977 death. Anger took the missing person's report from her parents. His son, Todd, now a Novi detective, was in her class at Pattengill Elementary School, and Anger knew her parents through the Parent-Teacher Association. Someday, he said, the case will be solved. "If it doesn't happen when I'm working at it, hopefully someone will carry on with it," Anger said. "The absolute bottom line is, somebody out there absolutely knows." BRIAN MURPHY can be reached at 248-586-2611, JULIE EDGAR at 248-586-2605, HUGH MCDIARMID JR. at 248-858-2292. MORE OAKLAND COUNTY STORIES
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 17, 2011 21:03:25 GMT -5
I find all these posts, slams, and slanders fun to read but there is something terribly wrong here. I am sure that not all of these suspects are guilty. I am sure their families are hurt by all these false statements. Anger, the evidence you have made public is pathetically weak. You owe Norbergs family an apology or make your strong case public. A dead man cannot hide evidence. Helen, you really make me sick. You can stick your "I think he was thinking this" where the sun don't shine. And Les, why did you wait so long to make public a "shocking poloroid"? As for the rest of you theorist,(and especially Helen) stop whining and procrastinating get off your donkeys, write down in a nice organized manner everything you know and send it to Detective Gray so he can get your info into a data base. Several of you have the key and don't even know it. One of you has the key and you do know it.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 18, 2011 17:12:40 GMT -5
STUDT ASKED DOES JOHN HAVE THE BOOK CATCHER IN THE RYE? I'm a year older than John. "The Catcher in the Rye" was required reading for my generation. And not required by any school curriculum. We cut our rebellious, anti-establishment teeth on Catcher in the Rye. That book was a rite-of-passage for us, an anthem to our baby-boomer teenage angst. It's right up there with the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction," as in, "I can't get no."--lol--Most of us read "Catcher" and ended up doing too much sex and drugs and rock n roll. Evidently, one read it, and became a serial killer. Not sure how much Catcher in the Rye had anything to do, with any of it. But, don't let me interrupt the interesting discussion. lol JJ 10
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 22, 2011 0:20:55 GMT -5
Chatham's was the grocery store next the drugstore where Tim went. A & P was the store right next to John's house. Just FYI. I wonder then if John's timing was Tim's sister was just leaving the house and Tim had already left for the store. Or maybe he saw Tim leave for the store and followed him..and then later "bumped" into him in the store. The details kill me. ----- Original Message ----- Xxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 22, 2011 19:29:25 GMT -5
Hi Helen, Are you referring to his post on the Serial Chic site with the boys names? If so, he states that the info is from the Detroit News March 29, 1977. The papers are on microfiche at the Detroit Public Library so he may have gone there and copied the info as I have done that at different times. Did CO tell you about the Manuel info that Mark is posting on the group page? It supposedly is some manuel used by the police regarding the OCCK investigation. Nothing that he had posted has been very new of insightful but he posted today that Kristine's Mom worked at the bowling alley just down the street from the 7-11. Is it possible that John knew Kristine's Mom from there and may have met/known Kristine from there? Just wondering what your thoughts are-- Xxxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 23, 2011 11:57:58 GMT -5
I think Helen Dagner has said that it took ten years to get her to court and then she won on appeal. She has also said that "Kevin if you think I stole anybody's money then you are as crazy as I think you are."
It sounds to me as though Helen Dagner may have made enemies in the past. She may have been prosecuted on trumped up charges.
I don't know a great deal of background information to these OCCK Michigan murders.
The senior officer in charge of the investigation, called Robertson, sounds a bit like a Michigan Steve Thomas to me. He is supposed to have said that the case will never be solved. He then jumped to the conclusion that it was something to do with some kind of pedo ring in, I think 'Cass corridor' which was known to the police at the time.
There is some gossip on the internet that one of the OCCK bodies was found in Wayne County, and the Oakland County and Wayne County police didn't then cooperate with each other. They even withheld information from each other. It doesn't sound like a prompt and efficient murder investigation to me. That was a bit like the lack of cooperation between the Boulder County and Boulder city police in the Ramsey case.
I disagree with Helen Dagner's 'Patsy did it' theories in the Ramsey case. It could be that's because she knows about as much about the Ramsey case as I do about the Michigan OCCK murders.
Whatever you may say about Helen Dagner her suspect John confessed to the OCCK murders in front of witnesses. John even provided details which were confidential police information at the time. It was foolish, and the utmost folly, for the police to disregard John as a suspect. Helen Dagner has other information about John which makes me highly suspicious about John, rather like Fleet White in the Ramsey case.
I was interested to learn that John lived in the UK, and Georgia USA for several years. It doesn't sound to me as though the Georgia police, or British police, were ever informed about that. There seem to be rumors that he is now back in Michigan.
There is a mention on the internet that somebody contacted, and was interviewed by Detective Gray of Oakland County police, about a connection between possible Georgia and Michigan murders. Detective Gray was supposed to have laughed and smiled at the witness. It sounds a bit like the Boulder police and FBI investigation into the Krebs information.
Xxxxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 25, 2011 0:08:20 GMT -5
Dear Det.'s Gray and Robertson, My name is Judi Coltman. I was a sophomore at Seaholm in March of 1977. Cathy King was in my husband's class, Chris King was in my class, and Tim King was my brother in law Tim Coltman's good friend. In fact, he was one of the boys with Tim at Hunter Maple the afternoon of March 16. My mother in law ( now deceased) Polly Coltman was also at the pharmacy that afternoon and is sure she physically bumped into the OCCK. She also watched as this same person circled the block of Madison St. and around Poppleton Park several times that afternoon. She reported her experience to the police, but was discounted - mostly, she believed, because the man was not driving a blue Gremlin, but a light colored vehicle. Before Tim King's body was found, my brother in law ( who was 12 at the time) received a few phone calls from a man wanting to know more about Tim King. The caller never identified himself, but the police did put a tap on their line for a few days with no luck. If you have any interest in what Polly Coltman told me - or what our time frame was on the 16th of March - please let me know. I promised her literally on her deathbed that I would never let it go if there was a way to get someone to listen. Feel free to email me. Sincerely, Judi Coltman
Answer* If you could provide more information on when she contacted the task force, so I could locate the information from her original contact(dates, Police Departments, etc), I would have a better understanding of what information you are referring to.
Because, unless she was able to provide a vehicle registration or some other specific information, I am not sure what we could do with the apparently limited information. As our Task Force is substantially smaller than the one from the 1970's and 80's, we must trust that the officers at the time of the orginial task force conducted complete investigations.
If you have further viable information..please forward it to myself, and I will review it.
And, Thank you for your interest in this case.
D/Sgt. David Robertson Michigan State Police Metro North Post 248-584-5740
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 29, 2011 0:16:55 GMT -5
Helen, I don't think any of that stuff was missing. I am pretty sure my Mom would have noticed and she would have asked us about it. It was my impression that Tim only had his skateboard with him when he was abducted, but this was just my impression/recollection. I spoke with one of my brothers today, who said that when he realized Tim had not come home, he literally ran around the neighborhood with a baseball bat for about two hours. He said that while he was doing this he saw a blue gremlin parked at the HM parking lot and that he told two different cops that he didn't think a blue gremlin was the car because he had seen one still parked at HM later in the evening. Here's one more thing that has always tortured me--Tim had a very large bruise/bruises on his head. I saw this with my own eyes at the funeral home and it was really shocking. Did John ever have any comment about that? Did he describe how Tim was "displayed" in the ditch? Did he tell you how he got Tim to go with him? I will understand if you don't want to answer. Cathy ----- Original Message -----
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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 30, 2011 2:08:31 GMT -5
Voice of the Oakland County Child Killer? − Part I By Heather Catallo Web produced by Sarah Morgan April 30, 2006 It's the case that has haunted southeast Michigan for decades. Michael Dean Grant has already been convicted of killing a young child and now his own son is asking if he could be the Oakland County Child Killer. Action News has uncovered Grant's strange conversation with an innocent child that was recorded on tape. Parts of the audio tape give clues as to when and where the mysterious performance was recorded. The tape was likely made in southeast Michigan − possibly Southfield. In the background − you can hear what appears to be a CB transmission. It sounds like Michael Dean Grant is talking into the tape recorder with a three year old boy. The question of when − could be answered by this: Grant: "What do you watch on television?" Child: "Incredible hulk!" Re: Voice of the Oakland County MI Child Killer? − Part I Re: Voice of the Oakland County MI Child Killer? − Part I 1
The Hulk was a hit show in the late 1970's. Another hint as to when this was recorded is the radio that's playing in the background. The radio station, WWJ FM 97, used those call letters in the Detroit area during the '70's. So who is the man behind this voice and why does his own son want to know if he could have been involved in the Oakland County Child Killings? Back in 1970, Michael Dean Grant was convicted in Indiana for savagely beating his girlfriend's 3−year−old son to death. Two years before that, prison records show, he was also the prime suspect in the death of another woman's 18−month−old son. But Grant later escaped from prison and fled to Michigan with a new girlfriend. The couple had a son and lived on the run for 24 years. The now 65−year−old Grant is back behind bars in Indiana and his own son believes this convicted killer may have murdered other children. Because of his father's violent past and where they lived during the mid−1970's, Chip St. Clair says his dad could be the notorious Oakland County Child Killer. "With the Oakland County Child Killings occurring in the exact time in the same area where my parents lived...people suggesting that my father tried to abduct them during that time period," said St. Clair. Chip suspects he's the 3−year−old on this tape talking with Grant. "When I hear his voice, it makes me − makes me cringe. He is the voice of absolute cruelty," said St. Clair. Chip says Grant tried to kill him several times as a child and he had to endure decades of beatings. "He'd grab me from behind and plunge me under water and stand on my back, hold me under there," said St. Clair. After the Oakland County Child Killer abducted each of his victims the children were held for several days before they were murdered. Re: Voice of the Oakland County MI Child Killer? − Part I Re: Voice of the Oakland County MI Child Killer? − Part I 2
That's why the killer was dubbed "the babysitter." Chip St. Clair worries that at one point−his father may have had other children in his care. Chip found the audio tape inside a trunk that was left behind in his father's apartment after Grant was sent back to prison. He also found baby teeth, hair, jewelry and photos of other children that he doesn't recognize. As it currently stands, Michael Dean Grant is due to get out of prison next year. Grant did not want to comment on this story. Detectives say they are planning to question him about the Oakland County case soon. As for the audio tape, Monday on Action News at 6 p.m. − you'll hear even more of this disturbing conversation between this killer and a child. Do you have a link to this Anne? I was doing some internet searching and I can't find this news article. There's a lot of stuff out there. Chocolic
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