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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 1, 2011 22:36:39 GMT -5
This is not evidence in the Oakland County Child Murders-This is a Statement from The FOIA Documents-From a Narrative Report on the Busch interview dated 1-28-77
He states he was only involved with one woman & did have sexual relations with her. He states this was not enjoyable to him and like little boys better. He states he was in London, England from February 7 1976 thru Feb 14, 1976. He FLEW FROM LONDON TO NEW YORK, NEW YORK TO CHICAGO & CHICAGO TO BRISTOL AIRPORT IN FLINT (Caps are mine) He states his parents picked him up at the airport and they went directly home. He (??can't read word) that this could be verified by his passport. Det. Sgt. XXXXXXXXX, of the Alma P.D. was contacted and asked if he would go to the Busches house and check the passport. Busch told him where it was. Lombardi called back and verified Busch's story. Note-Jack why do you have such a hard time understanding these Documents?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 1, 2011 22:43:31 GMT -5
Matt this is the only post I could find that had the Info you mention in-Omori
02-13-2011, 12:33 PM
Obviously, the killer was someone the kids trusted. Had to be. For that reason we can eliminate Chris Busch. One look at him and you know there's no way any kid (or for that matter any adult) is getting in a car with that guy. Hastings has simply been investigated and cleared too many times to warrant any further interest unless some new evidence pops up. At best, he had a very peripheral involvement of the "friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend-told-me" type thing.
Right now, I don't trust anybody's suspect. Everybody has their favorite and can reel off three dozen compelling reasons why it's him. You solve the case with your info and I'll believe you but until then I don't trust anybody's suspect. Right now, all we really have to go on is the evidence at hand which isn't a lot.
We can safely eliminate the blue Gremlin thing. That has never produced anything useful and has sent the cops on wild goose chases. Same with the hair found on Tim King's body. That could have come from anybody. The killer could have deliberately planted it. It's not really that good a piece of evidence as many seem to think. At best, it's 50-50 that it ever proves anything.
Putting Robinson's bike in the trunk is reasonable to assume. She wouldn't just leave it there although I have a problem with the killer bringing it back and placing it off Main Street where he could have been observed but that's likely what he did because I can't believe the girl just left the bike to go somewhere with this individual. He probably did it in the wee hours of the morning after the bars closed.
About the girls being molested, we don't have any hard evidence to suggest it. In fact, the impression I get is that the girls were taken for bonding purposes otherwise why was Mihelich kept for so long? The killer bonded with her. I can't think of any other reason. Why was Robinson kept only three days--less than any of the others--and then shot in the face? The evidence showed she was shot where she lay. That indicates she was already incapacitated, dead or unconscious when it happened. IOW, she would have died whether shot or not. Apparently, Robinson wasn't in the bonding mood so the killer got rid of her and then shot her in the face as a show of disrespect. A way of saying, "I didn't like this one."
The two boys had marks showing that they had been bound. They had been sodomized with a dildo or other object. It's reasonable to assume they were bound for this reason.
I think in all cases, the children were told they were going to be set free. Had to be. Otherwise how do you get a child to eat a last meal of fried chicken if he knew he was going to die?
The method of asphyxiation is open to question. I think Dagner thought it was a muscle relaxant. That's actually not a bad assumption. It would answer a lot of questions. No violence has to be committed, no fighting and struggling, no pleading and screaming. You just inject them at a moment that they don't expect it and they just go limp and die within 10 or 15 minutes. That could explain how King's body could still be warm. However, it would depend on what the autopsy found and whether any muscle relaxants were ever tested for.
When you add it up: Girls not molested, one kept 19 days, boys sodomized with an object, clothes washed and pressed, bodies bathed, pedicures and manicures, last meals, no death struggles all point to something not too many give much credence to: the killer could have been a female. If you're a child and a woman calls you to her car, you're probably not going to be wary at all. Even calling the killer "Babysitter" implies a female presence.
But whether male or female, the next issue we must think about is exactly how the killer got the child to their place of captivity without things getting messy. If some man or woman you know says, "Let me drive you home" and then takes off in another direction, you're probably going to fight. If I were Tim King, I would have bashed with you with my skateboard.
That leads me to think there was more than one person in the car. So we probably have at least two people working in collusion. Possibly males were carrying out the orders of a female. In cases like that, it's usually a mother-son thing. NOTE-If this isn't what you are looking for let me know-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 1, 2011 22:45:58 GMT -5
First things first. The odds of anyone getting away with murder are GREATLY reduced any time more than one person is involved. People just naturally seem to like to run their mouths. They brag to friends, unburden their souls, death bed confessions, get drunk and flap their jibbs and etc.... Further increasing the odds against it being more than one perp would be the nature of pedophiles, which is that they keep on offending, which means they are increasingly likely to get caught for another, different crime, and spill their guts to get some kind of deal. Also, assuming these multiple sickos were pedophiles, why in hell would they take the enormous risk of placing the bodies in highly visible, populated locations? Hell, wasn't one of the kids dropped off close to a police station? Who ever heard of a ring of pedophiles taking all of those chances so they could taunt the cops? All of the pedophiles I've ever heard of didn't want the cops to know they even existed. No, if these kids were taken by a ring of perverts, neither the children nor their bodies would have ever been seen again. Furthermore, pedophilia as a motive becomes even more unlikely because the entire community was on hyper alert when Kris and Tim were abducted. If molestation were the motive, why wouldn't the perverts just go somewhere else (that wasn't on guard) and grab some kids there, as it wouldn't have been so risky for them? So, it looks like these crimes were committed by one person, who was not motivated by sex. What then, does the evidence say about motive? It seems that it was nothing personal against the kids as they didn't appear to suffered physical mistreatment while they were alive, nor were they "posed" in any kind of degrading fashion. If we take away as a motive sex, revenge, kidnap for ransom, murder for inheritance and etc., looks like our killer was trying to make some kind of statement to society.Since there was no "Political Manifesto" or anything else left with the children, the killer's message to Society must have been very personal to the killer and may have made sense to him alone. The twisted, distorted emotional thinking involved was as unique to this killer as was his own warped psychological make up. He saw himself as being a failed member of a well to do, respected and accomplished family. College drop out, washing dishes, just dumped by his only girl friend up until that time... He just wasn't measuring up! All of this was taking place on a faulty mental/emotional foundation indeed. You see, his father was distant and emotionally remote, was overly critical and more concerned with appearances than presiding over a nurturing, supportive household. His family was middle class, but the area was upper middle class to out and out rich. He let the kids know that they came from line of illustrious achievers, and were expect to do the family name proud. But wait, there's more! His mom was nuts. Certifiably. Who knows what impact she added to his turmoil during his formative childhood years. I'm sure it was a lot and it wasn't good. So, here we have our suspect, rejected by his father, dumped by his girl, rejected by society (Couldn't even find a decent job) washing dishes. No wonder this creep was mad at the world. He figured it was the whole system of rich snobs and upper class elite types that rigged the social/economic system against poor, smart good guys like him who weren't born with a silver thingy in their mouth. He was sick of getting screwed around by " the man" (Society), and being insignificant. It just wasn't fair! But, how to fight back? That was the question. He had no money, no influence, no army, nothing. When, suddenly it hit him; THEIR CHILDREN.
The children were the one vulnerability he could exploit in his effort to strike back at Society for the raw deal he was getting. In his own twisted mind, he may have figured that since life was painful and sucked, he would really be doing the kids a favor by saving them from living a life sure to be full of disappointment, frustration and pain, by killing them. Perhaps our killer was not only smacking down Society, as may be evidenced by the fact that the killer had two boys and two girls as siblings in his own family, as if to say that on a subconscious level, he was symbolically destroying his own family, (With Society as a whole representing his father). So our suspect not only has the only motive that makes sense and fits the evidence, he actually has ancillary reinforcing motives. But wait, there's yet even more!!! As an additional Gigantic Motive and Big Time Pay Off was the fact that our killer was no longer an insignificant cipher in the crowd, Suddenly, HE MATTERED!!! HE was the most important person in the world for a whole lot of people. Like a God who held the power of Life and Death! He stopped killing for two reasons; #1 He had finished making his statement. #2 He almost got caught and since he was not motivated by sex, he had no need to continue.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 2, 2011 13:32:34 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 3, 2011 16:06:40 GMT -5
Helen, I caught this in your FOIA documents,that you just posted. "One thing about Biff's, I worked there Friday and Sunday nights. I worked there 2 days. I can't verify that, but I know I worked there Friday and Sunday nights. It was just 2 days. The pay check was enough to put a little money in my pocket. I remember I was working there after they found Timmy BLK 01656"
I just knew John was in Birmingham when Tim was abducted and killed, and then for the cook where he worked to ask him right out if he fed that chicken to Tim, well I always thought the food to feed the kids while they were in captivity came from a restaurant that the killer was working at because that way he didn't have to shop in a store for it, where a clerk might of remember what someone bought. Scott
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Post by battista on Sept 3, 2011 18:38:13 GMT -5
Hi Helen,
What prompted the cook to ask that...was he suspicious of John for some reason?
Also, do you happen to know if his brother (T?) was really living in Atlanta in the late 70s? Is this what brought John back there in the 90s?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 3, 2011 19:19:31 GMT -5
Hi battista, I think the cook said it because John was always taking food home and because -The last thing he saw him take was chicken-What is interesting about this is-the first time I went for coffee with John and The mother of his child-He also said out of the clear blue sky-I cooked that chicken-and I find out 20 years later-that John indeed cooked that Chicken that the cook saw him take home-This is all in the FOIA reports-as John had also told me he put a chicken bone in Tims pocket and that he saw a Cat walk over Tims body and he was sure the cat took that chicken bone--as I told John There was NO Chicken bone in Tims pocket when he was found-So did you Lie to me about That? He said No I did put the chicken bone in Tims pocket -so his parents would know that he had been fed his favorite meal-Several years ago -I tried to get the MSP to have his pockets tested for that chicken bone-but they wouldn't do it-I'm sure you have read the chicken bone story-where the trooper sent and email out to all the other troopers saying-Should I just go out and Shoot her ...Chicken bone and all-and he made a mistake and sent me one too- Below is the letter I sent to Senators for the State of Michigan on January 9, 2003. It was shortly after this letter that I was contacted by officials. I want to note an error in the letter. The "FBI" Agent mentioned in the letter is actually a "Federal Agent" not an FBI Agent. If anyone has questions or information vital to this case...please e-mail...or leave a voicemail at 931-397-3893. Fax: 931-823-9821  -Todd Matthews ColdCases Moderator/ Media Director for Doenetwork & Outpost For Hope February 15, 2003 letter to Senate...2nd letter Dear Senators, The Oakland County Michigan Child Killer: When Helen Dagner once again tried to tell her story to Lt Edwards......she was being laughed at behind her back. As her e-mail circulated in which she made reference to a "chicken bone" placed in the pocket of one of the victims by the killer........the officials had a laugh. One official, Sandy McMillan, made this comment in an e-mail.... "Would you like me to just go out and shoot her...........chicken bone and all." But the joke was on HIM as instead of forwarding the e-mail....he sent it BACK to Helen! We know it was a harmless joke.....though this isn't something that should be joked about. But if the shoe was on the other foot and Helen had made the comment.....she would likely be in jail as a result of such an error. From what we hear through the grapevine.....higher officials are looking into that situation....so as a gesture of goodwill and only wanting to see justice in this case.....we removed the e-mail for the time being. Hard to place sole blame of the officer that sent her the e-mail as the original was sent to a superior of his.....and one has to wonder how it got to the joke point. No personal ill will was intended for the officer in question. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time...and got caught. He did send Helen a very short note apologizing. Has the state police been under investigation for abuse and mis-use of internet & E-mail?? |
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 3, 2011 19:46:33 GMT -5
Hi Helen, Just got up for the yearly family barbecue and the Occk came up and my sister said have you seen Helen's Videos and all the photos and graphic on her site, I looked at her and said there is a Occk site? I had never thought to look and see if there was anything online. Wow girl you have nail it!I couldn't wait until I got back on Tuesday,I called all my friends tonight! Absolutely remarkable!! KM
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 3, 2011 21:02:29 GMT -5
The New Occk Video is up at YouTube and will have it on the site in just a bit-Enjoy!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 4, 2011 3:12:41 GMT -5
Dear Helen:
You may telephone me at the Telephone Number listed below. I have spoken to you before.
* (248) xxx xxxx
I have some new information on the OCCK case and a possible natural cure for your cancer. You will need to check with your Physician.
with Sincere Regard;
Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 4, 2011 18:28:00 GMT -5
Helen I just saw your latest video. I'm very perplexed over the fact that John has Mitchell name right above the word WaterTower
on his map but the police docs imply they couldn't find anything on it. I guess 20 years later someone must ask how can this be? Pete
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 4, 2011 19:06:00 GMT -5
Helen, On John's maps I know the dot represents Jill's body. The square building is labeled and is the Troy PD. Across I-75 is a triangle. I don't know the name of the building but it is a high rise (20+ stories) and is shaped like a triangle from top down as he drew it. When I looked at Google maps, I was shocked to see it as John had drawn it. Two more observations I just made ( after looking again for the 10000 time): 1) On Map 4 where he has Dr. Danto circled. . .he calls then road Big Beaver. It is really Quarton Rd. Same Road (16mile) just changes name after crossing Woodward and that is common knowledge for anyone who lives there. NO ONE would make that mistake, so why did John do that? He would know better. Why was he so complete on some things but so lax about something that anyone who sees the map would recognize as a mistake? 2)The area where Danto's name appears is where they may have lived ( i don't remember) 3)Why the hell does he insist on pointing out Poppleton Park in his maps? It is not like a major park, it was a neighborhood park, there were tons of them. What the f-u-ck was he trying to tell you by pointing it out all of the time?  Matt |
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 4, 2011 19:08:40 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 4, 2011 19:10:54 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Sept 4, 2011 19:14:33 GMT -5
Hi Helen,
Thanks! I didn't know they found the art hanging. ED
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Matt