|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 18:35:22 GMT -5
OCCK HD ARCHIVES - Video #15
The OCCK HD Archives project now goes directly to Helen for her own personal and up close discussion about John and how for 20 years she has researched and tried to convince the OCCK task force. A very compelling story no matter what viewpoint you may have.
In Helen's Own Words - Part 1
Helen first meets John through his Daughter's mother. Public released photos of John as a young man from school yearbooks, the true story of John and his weirdness right from the start, the maps of OCCK locations drawn by John at the Big Boy on restaurant placemats and recently resurfaced from Barry King's FOIA request, a close zoomed up tour through two of the maps drawn by John, the story of Anthony Mitchell and his water-tower incident told by John, an uncovered artifact taken right from John's apartment 20 years ago and recently recovered from old storage which may shed some light on John's fake passport endeavor.
Note - This video released today, September 3, 2011, marks the 20 year anniversary of Helen meeting John.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 18:36:17 GMT -5
In Helen's Own Words - Part 2
Helen's first contact with Tom Robinson (Jill's dad) about John, her first contact with police over the OCCK details given from John, excerpt from Jill's favorite song Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and confirmed by a cousin, conceptual view of Hunter Maple Complex from 1977 where Tim was abducted and it's distinct shape from John's map. the various police departments listed on John's maps, parts of John's interview with police from FOIA docs, the inconclusive search for John's passport records and the inquiry of the first interview with John from 1977 with no passport reference back then, the book Wolf in Sheep's Clothing by Tommy McIntyre lend to John from Helen, an excerpt from the book that includes an interview with the first eyewitness account to Tim's abduction and the description of the man talking to Tim standing near a blue Gremlin.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 18:37:23 GMT -5
In Helen's Own Words - Part 3
Mystery youtuber 'MJH1922' promotes Helen's videos on his official playlist, the first visit of Birmingham police to John's apartment, John's list of stolen goods from his apartment including 115 books that were pawned locally in downtown Alpena, more details of the hanging wall art piece missing from McKinney's murder/gallery including color display from memory, inconclusive results from John's polygraph test in 2009 in Georgia from FOIA docs, the fallacy that the police presented for years about a coincidence surrounding Helen that caused the lack of investigation taken right from FOIA docs, how this has impacted the investigation for 20 years and still counting, interview with John's sister from 1992 and in contrast to what she has written on the internet in later years, interesting findings of the sketch of the Mark lookalike from Chris Busch murder/suicide with what appears to be someone's initials, "JH", and some unique cursive style to John's maps.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:16:15 GMT -5
JH: They asked me if I knew where I was on certain dates, you know. I didn't know, and the only thing I could tell them was that I was in Europe in the winter of '76.
DS: You were in Europe the winter of '76?
JH: Yep.
DS: Do you know the dates you were in Europe?
JH: January, February and part of March. I left here in January. I have a passport, I still have my passport from going there. It's kind of wrinkly, but I have a passport.
DS: Is it stamped?
JH: It's stamped in Luxenburg and Brussels, I believe.[ personal note: he remembers where he has stamps from after 15 years?]
DS:Do you know when the dates of those were?
JH: No. You mean stamped date?
DS: Yes. Do you have it where we could...how did you get here today?
JH: I walked.
DS:If we drove you back to your house, could you get it and show it to us?
JH: We'd have to drive to Ossinek to get it.
DS: so, it's not that far?
JH: It's 10 miles south of Alpena.
DS: ok, if we drove to Ossinek could you get it?
JH: Right
DS: Are you comfortable that those are the right dates...January, February, March of '77 was when you were there.
JH: right. Note-It is obvious that John does not know if he was out of the country in 76-or 77-He mentions still having a passport from that trip-Now here is what I do not understand-He doesn't show up with a passport when Interviewed in 1977-but in 1991-1992- when he is going for a polygraph-the first thing he pulls out is a passport--now John had two passports and he carried them on his body everyday-24-7 when he lived in Alpena--Before he had his polygarph--and before he knew I went to the Cops--He told me and I saw Documentation-that he planed on going into the" second passport business" He had order a passport from this company in 1985-86--they also sold additional services -like passport stamping and putting official post marks on other items-what ever you wanted to pay for-* also John tells in his Interview with DS-that his passport is very wrinkled...Well It wasn't when I saw it and I checked with others who had stole a peek at it-and they never saw any wrinkles-To begin with John would never keep any paper item that had any defect in it-as he was too fastidious-
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:18:11 GMT -5
From Cathy's FOIA papers~From an interview with Hastings March 17, 1992 2 p.m.:
John's name is redacted but it is very clear he is the subject of the interview.
[LE] DS: Obviously, you satisfied them that you were not the person. Nobody has talked to you since then?
JH: No body has talked to me since then, no, but [redacted]
DS: How did that interview go?
JH: It was really short. They just asked me some questions.
DS: What did they say?
JH: There asked me if I knew where I was on certain dates, you know. I didn't know, and the only thing I could tell them was that I was in Europe in the winter of '76.
DS: You were in Europe the winter of '76?
JH: Yep.
DS: Do you know the dates you were in Europe?
JH: January, February and part of March. I left here in January. I have a passport, I still have my passport from going there. It's kind of wrinkly, but I have a passport.
DS: Is it stamped?
JH: It's stamped in Luxenburg and Brussels, I believe.[ personal note: he remembers where he has stamps from after 15 years?]
DS:Do you know when the dates of those were?
JH: No. You mean stamped date?
DS: Yes. Do you have it where we could...how did you get here today?
JH: I walked.
DS:If we drove you back to your house, could you get it and show it to us?
JH: We'd have to drive to Ossinek to get it.
DS: so, it's not that far?
JH: It's 10 miles south of Alpena.
DS: ok, if we drove to Ossinek could you get it?
JH: Right
DS: Are you comfortable that those are the right dates...January, February, March of '77 was when you were there.
JH: right.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:20:53 GMT -5
Posted by Judi~ from The FOIA papers~Sorry - typing with right hand. The final sentence from DS ended with a question mark.
It goes on as follows:
DS; How did you get over there?
JH: I too a plane from New York, Icelandic Airways..
DS: From New York?
JH: Right.
DS: In January?
JH: Ya. I left here in January so I might have left the country about the end of January.
DS: How did you get to New York?
JH: Hitchhiked
DS: Where did you get the money to..
JH: I had a car and sold it. I didn't have a job here, so I sold it.
DS:What did you do in Europe?
JH: I was classified as a tourist and...
DS: you went by yourself?
JH: Ya.
DS: And how did you get back?
JH: It was a round trip, I believe a 45 day excursion, or something like that.
DS: Then you came back in probably March of '76 or so?
JH: Right.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:22:48 GMT -5
DS: Are you comfortable that those are the right dates...January, February, March of '77 was when you were there.
JH: right. Note-It is obvious that John does not know if he was out of the country in 76-or 77-He mentions still having a passport from that trip-Now here is what I do not understand-He doesn't show up with a passport when Interviewed in 1977-but in 1991-1992- when he is going for a polygraph-the first thing he pulls out is a passport--now John had two passports and he carried them on his body everyday-24-7 when he lived in Alpena--Before he had his polygarph--and before he knew I went to the Cops--He told me and I saw Documentation-that he planed on going into the" second passport business" He had order a passport from this company in 1985-86--they also sold additional services -like passport stamping and putting official post marks on other items-what ever you wanted to pay for-* also John tells in his Interview with DS-that his passport is very wrinkled...Well It wasn't when I saw it and I checked with others who had stole a peek at it-and they never saw any wrinkles-To begin with John would never keep any paper item that had any defect in it-as he was too fastidious-
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:24:37 GMT -5
March 16,1977 Consent Order for Temorary Relief~
Helen, I just finish looking the file over and you are correct. On March 16, 1977 there was a Consent Order for Temporary Relief ordered as part of the divorce proceedings. There were alot of things covered, including her getting custody of and support for Xxxx, the taxes, etc. One of the points is "It is further ordered that the parties hereto shall cooperate in every step necessary, including eviction proceedings if needed, to remove the adult child, John H. Xxxxxxxx, Jr (age 27 years) from the marital home as soon as possible." The order was signed by the judge and then entered into the record by the county clerk at 10:03 am on March 16, 1977.
(As a side note, I assume the middle "H" in Jr's name is a typo in the order. Aren't they both John M?)
Since it was the mother as the plaintiff in the divorce, I would take this as she's demanding John Sr's help in getting Jr out of the house. So, this proves where he was living, and you can assume he was home on that day. . I don't remember now what the cops said John was doing on that day,but does it really matter? You have the word of the person who was looking at the house on the very day,and she said John was home!Sgt.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:33:23 GMT -5
John Sisters Interview with Don Studt at The BPD~BLK 01624
said that her parents, she thinks, were divorced in 1977 and that was living with his mother in 1976 ans 1977. She believes her brother was living there and moved out in 1977 or 78 to go to Arizona. She said the divorce did have a traumatic affect on the family. However, she said that the family had many problems prior to that time. She characterized it as a family where everyone pretty much kept to themselves. She said that her father use to beat up her mother and went on to say that her mother was mentally ill, and at some point everybody hit their mother in that house. she said that did not have a close relationship with his mother and she thought, to this day, he still hated her. She said the sibling in the family do not keep in touch with each other. Once they left home, they left and did not go back. They very infrequently talked with each other or with their mother.
She said that her father had a stroke in approximately 1976 and he underwent a lot of changes. She described one incident where he was at her house and he thought he was 20 years old again. She had to take him into another room to look in the mirror that he wasn't 20 but in his 50's. She said the next day he seemed back to normal. However, at that period of time in his life when he left the mother and married another woman, and subsequently moved to Florida.
She said that had worked at General Motors for 10 years. She was not sure when. He was in Europe for a few months. However, she was unable to put a date on that. She believes it was before BLK 01625
the divorce but couldn't say for sure. It may have been after, but she has the impression it was before.
She indicated that told her on the phone, when they talked, that he has his passport and that might document dates he was in Europe. She said he went to Europe alone, worked his way over on a ship and he was gone a couple of months. He had talent as an artist and he went to Europe to draw. He was in Rome, Germany and France. He came back with a lot of drawings and paintings. He drew primarily European architecture. She doesn't know when he came home or how he got home.
Of all the children in the family, probably she and were the closest. She was the oldest and he was the next oldest. They worked at several restaurants together when they were young while in high school and just out of high school. She also worked at Biff's at Maple and Telegraph when did. When was young he really had no friends or discussed his problems. When asked, she said that she did not know if had ever been sexually molested, but she believes he was approached by a homosexual named when he worked at Biff's. The reason she thinks this is because she knew and knew he was a homosexual. She seems to recall that called up the brother and was talking on the phone about explicit things and she things her mother overheard that conversation. She was asked if she thought her brother was a homosexual or bi-sexual. She said probably not. She couldn't say exactly why, but it was just her impression that he was not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2012 22:39:50 GMT -5
Helen, since we now know from the FOIA papers that John's oldest sister was the one that called him in Alpena and you over heard her conversation where in she told John to get out of there before you and the mother of his child found out the Family secret,well what have the cops done about that? Has she been polygraph ? It just seems to me that is a statement of great value, because she was already aware that you and S- already had been told about the living conditions at there home and how John was treated by the other family members and that his mom had mental problems ect. So the Family Secret in my opinion,had to do with something other than the normal family deal, as why was it so important that she screamed at him to get out of there NOW!!! As I recall John's answer was, I will go overseas, just like I did before! William Yorke- Note-I wish I had these answers for you,however that family lies so much that it is impossible to sort it all out...at least for me it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 22, 2012 15:47:13 GMT -5
John-Supplemental incident report dated 12-21-09
« Thread Started on May 22, 2011, 10:11pm »
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 22, 2012 15:49:32 GMT -5
"[John] was asked if he would please contact the undersigned if he decides to move or change his phone number. He was further asked if it would be alright to contact him as a possible resource if something new should develop regarding a person he may have knowledge about, thus keeping an open line of communication with him for easy access.[John] said he would definitely keep the undersigned appraised of his whereabouts and if his telephone number should change.
[John] stated that he hasn't been in contact with anyone about the case, either from the Atlanta area or the Metro Detroit area."
All from a MSP supplemental incident report. Don't hack on me for it.
Why do a bunch of civilians have to read this sh** and piece the thing together? Because the police never will. Ask them why.
Mybrotherskeeper
Supplemental incident report dated 1-8-10:
12-18-09 journal entry notes that D/Sgt. Ingrid Dean of the Traverse City Post would mail a copy of the 1977 article in the Traverse City newspaper about Fox Island. Dean "was able to make a contact with Retired Sergeant Moyes who does remember the North Fox case and remembers THERE WERE SEVERAL BOXES OF PHOTOGRAPHS.(Emphasis added.) "Moyes advised Igrid that he will definitely like to meet with here and hel in any way he can."
Mybrotherskeeper
FBI Laboratory (Quantico) Report of Examination, sent to FBI SA Sean Callaghan, Dated June 19, 2008--
Note that there are many redactions.
Says specimens received on March 31, 2008, April 25, 2008, and April 28, 2008.
It looks like buccal samples were provided from five people. The only name not redacted is Greg Green's. Because of the way this document is redacted, it is clear that a sample was provided by "the identified brother of Chris Busch," as well as a sample from "the identified sister of [redacted]."
These samples were being compared to the mitochondrial DNA sequences from at lease two previously obtained sequences--
The Q19 hair from the Pontiac debris, and the Q29 hair from the debris from the body of Timothy King (FBI Laboratory number 970808021, FBI Laboratory report dated June 25, 1999).
The report specifically states that "[t]he mtDNA sequences from Q19, Q29 [others redacted] are different. Therefore,[redacted, redacted], Gregory Greene, Chris Busch and [redacted], can be excluded as the source of the Q19 and Q29 hairs."
OK WHAT CAN WE TAKE FROM THIS? A HAIR WAS OBTAINED FROM "PONTIAC DEBRIS"--WTF??? WHAT PONTIAC?! THE Q29 HAIR WAS TAKEN FROM THE BODY OF TIMOTHY KING--APPARENTLY NOT FOUND UNTIL SOME TIME AROUND 6-25-99. A HAIR ON TIM KING'S BODY--AND I THINK THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE HAIR FOUND AND THAT THE OTHER MAY HAVE TURNED UP MISSING. AND Q29 ISN'T DISCOVERED UNTIL JUNE 1999?! JUST HOW SERIOUS WERE THESE PEOPLE ABOUT SOLVING THE CRIMES IF THEY HADN'T RERUN THE KIDS' CLOTHING FOR EVIDENCE AFTER EVIDENTIARY TECHNIQUES HAD IMPROVED BEFORE 1999? This stinks, stinks, stinks. And this information from only 20 pages provided in the FOIA suit! Imagine what is in the documents they withheld. The murdered kids in this case never had a voice. Not from day 1. And, police officers, this is who you represent. Not the families, not the prosecutors. You are the voice for the murdered. Their only chance. This is so revolting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 22, 2012 15:52:09 GMT -5
more from Cathy's posting at Topix tonight-
Mybrotherskeeper wrote:
Ok, not in any particular order and I have to go back and compare the questions to the documents and double-check the FOIA request.
For now--
I have found nothing about John returning the Wolf book or reference to the fact that it was a library book.
The hair fragment found on Kris's shirt is designated Q 34.1. Gunnels cannot be excluded as the source of that hair. Hairs designated Q 19 and Q 29 are two different hairs. Q 19 and Q 29 are not from the same person. In other words, the DNA sequence of these two hairs does not match. So those are 3 separate hairs (one a fragment), each from a different person.
Hastings' name is on the cover sheets to various documents and transcripts concerning him. The name "John" is at times not redacted in the documents. Having read Helen's site many, many times, it is easy to figure out even without the occasional redaction gaffe, who the statements pertain to. The FOIA request did not specify records relating to John Hastings. When the plaintiffs raised this issue in the context of payment for copies of these records, the response was that all of the records were inextricably intertwined. Hmm.
What do I think about Hastings? The more I read in these documents, the more I question LE's blowing off of Helen Dagner and Hastings. As much as LE wants to make it look like they were entirely justified in concluding he did not participate and knew nothing, given what I have read I cannot see how they so easily reached this conclusion.
Finally, for this post, why didn't LE ask for victims of Busch or Green to come forward after all of this surfaced? There had to be hundreds of victims in Michigan. Had to be. Nobody wants to see if any one of these victims would consider coming forward to add whatever information possible?
Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI
1 min ago
Cathy,I guess I should have stated-the tapes I am talking about-are just to do with Busch-and on the other side-The cops have lost a great witness-even after they were aware of her...they never got back to her in 20 years and acorse when I talked to her last week-she blamed me for it--I didn't know what to say to her-I should have check back with her years ago-but it never crossed my mind-that every single cop that knew about her and the info she could give-would never interview her again-and I think the Birmingham police is responsible for that-for god sakes they even had her in the car and did no more than talk small talk with her and at the time-we both just thought-they didn't want her or I to say anything in front of each other-What a F--ing mess--and I can tell the cops right now -she will never talk to any of them now-and she made it very clear-that she wasn't going to talk to me ever again either-and she ment it!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 22, 2012 15:54:14 GMT -5
posted on Topix by-CandyO
Champaign, IL -I have not read these documents as closely as Keeper has but I can verify that John takes up a good quarter of the stack that is well over a foot high. And I can also verify that his story changes from his first interviews in the 90's to the most recent one from Georgia. After reading these docs there is no way John should be dismissed from scrutiny. No way.
I hope the recent news blitz that is squeezing LE instead of using them as their sole source brings about a more intense and focused investigation. Squeeze Gunnels, Busch's brother, John, John's siblings and find any of the former victims of Busch, Greene etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 22, 2012 18:23:21 GMT -5
|
|
