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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 26, 2011 13:59:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get this started, only because...I really don't know where to begin, nearly everyday I have someone ask me if I feel John was investigated like he should have been. I decided I would let you, the site readers, make that decision-Lets start with the Letter of 4-18-77, when sent to the FBI for analysis, the examination on the typewriting on the Q2 photocopy reveals that it most closely resembles a standard maintained in the Laboratory for Underwood pica style type, spaced 10 letters to the inch, 02 was also searched through the appropriate sections of the anonymous letter File without making an identification--Now herein lies the problem; this Info was for investigative information only-NO report by the FBI was submitted-Then along comes Helen years and years later-and before the cops ever came up to Alpena to Investigate John, she tells them John is writing a book and has been for years-typing it out on his old Underwood -now neither John or I had read the 'Wolf In Sheep's Clothing" book yet (The Search For A Child Killer) by Tommy McIntyre, If we had, I would have remembered that Info. The cops came up the day I picked the "Wolf " book up from the Library, I took it to John's Apt. so he could read it first.So, that night, as John was to meet me at The Big Boy, like he did every night-the cops were going to observe him....as the next morning they were going to give him a search of his apartment and office, well John was a No show-for the very first time since I had met him. Knowing that he was an avid reader, I just thought time had gotten away from him, it was too late for me to go find out what was up, and his not showing up for coffee did puzzle me...but the cops where going there the next day, so that was going to clear up everything, wasn't it? Well when they did the search..not one Item I told them about was at his apartment, not even the typewriter and although I thought that was strange, as I had just been there the day before the search, I didn't give it any more thought -until after I had read the "Wolf" book, then I knew that was what John was busy doing when he didn't show up at Big Boys...he was getting rid of anything mention in the Wolf book, hiding it some where. So anyway I called Studt and he said they read a few pages from his book while they were at John's,,,I said did you keep a copy of the Type? He said no...Now this would not be the last time I would be surprised by the way the cops handled this investigation....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 27, 2011 0:10:06 GMT -5
I'm going to tell you about this incident as it happened the night before the search of John's apartment and shoe box office.I have been beating myself up over this for 20 yrs, I wish I could say just something simple-like Oops, but it was not that kind of error in judgment. I had done a lot of under cover work for along time, before I met John and the fact is, I should have known better. When the mother of John's child told me that she had found a manicure set hidden up behind a drawer on a ledge in his desk at the shoe box office, she asked me if she should sneak in and get it, and bring it to the meeting we were having with the Birmingham police that night, I said sure, for some reason I thought instantly of DNA being on it from Tim or one of the other children-I found out real soon that bringing this to the meeting was a bad idea! The cops wouldn't look at it, because it was evidence obtained in a wrongful manner. So there we are riding around Alpena discussing John-with no way of getting the manicure set back into that office but, we thought we could do it the next day before they would do the search. The mother of Johns child would call him down to the office on the pretense that their child needed some medical information-well that could have worked, however John only had a key for his office and it just being a closet made into a small office, he didn't have a key to the business, and the guy who owned it never open up till 10am and John would be with the cops at his apartment then-Who knew? So needless to say the 1970s Manicure set in the Brocade soft case, never was put back by the time the cops did the office search-but she did get it back there later that day-you get where I'm going with this-Right? I, F--ked up big time!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 28, 2011 0:04:40 GMT -5
Why is this manicure set important? Because Wayne County Medical Examiner Werner Spitz who did Tim's autopsy said " He was scrubbed,his fingers and toe nails were immaculate,they had been Manicure.....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 29, 2011 0:01:44 GMT -5
The next day after the search of Johns apartment and office in Alpena-after the Birmingham police left town...Beth and I were sitting in Big Boys and I looked out the window and right across the street in front of the Credit Union.John was stomping up and down the street...I thought he was trying to get my attention-he had a very large bag of bananas that he was gorging rapidly,and i could see he was upset--I got in the car and drove slowly by him calling out his name...he didn't even look my way--he looked like he was in one of his trances,his eyes were just spinning ...so i thought i would wait until evening to see if he showed up for coffee at the Big Boy....sure enough,when i arrived there,he was setting at the bar-that in it self was interesting because we had a thing about the first one to arrive would get the booth by the door,so that we could look out the window...so I went a head and put my stuff in the booth ,but John didn't come over...so I walked over to the bar ...and said,well did the search go alright? He looked at me like he wanted to kill me right then and there...I just kept talking to him...wanting to know if he finish the wolf book and why he didn't show up for coffee last night....he was visibly upset with me...didn't answer my questions and said in a really deep voice-get away from me-if you don't I'm going to leave!...The only thing I can remember saying to him...was something along the lines of...ok John well it is your loss....
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 1, 2011 1:16:44 GMT -5
A couple of days later-I left for Escanaba and John lost his apartment and moved into my friend Scotts Homeless Shelter for men-I wrote John a 25 page letter asking him to confess to the Birmingham police-a week after that I left Escanaba and went back to Alpena,as I wanted to see if John had a reaction to my letter-When I first saw him,he just looked at me and walked away-I was in and out of Scott's everyday and stayed over a few different nights...the guys all stayed upstairs and I stayed down stairs...John always seem to make it down to the living room,when I was sitting in it,and he would just walk around like he was trying to get my attention,but never said a word...all the guys would eat dinner together in the dinning room and when I was there,I would also eat with them....and every time...John would sit next to me, not saying a word to me but joining in with others when we were having conversation-One night John had a meeting with Scott-who was also his spiritual adviser...it lasted way into the night and the next morning Scott said to me-Helen,John didn't do these murders-We were all standing around the big wooden kitchen block,getting set to have some breakfast-and when I looked at John...I said well if you didn't do this John,then you should tell me...he would'nt even look up...so I started screaming at him-tell me-tell me what you told Scott,he still wouldn't say anything, nor look at me-then all the guys said tell her-then he finally said-I didn't do this-Didn't do what John? I said you can not even look me in the eyes-now if you want me to believe you-look me in the eyes and tell me your not The Oakland County Child Killer-He couldn't do it-so I went stomping off to the upstairs and when I walked by his room-I saw my 25 page letter-that asked him to confess to the cops..then the phone rang and I picked up the extension,and then John came on the downstairs phone-and someone on the line (his sister) was telling him to get out of there-get away from those two woman and do it now! Before they find out the family secret!-She was Hysterical and so was John-He said I will go over seas!-I will go over seas!,just like I did before....
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 2, 2011 0:03:55 GMT -5
Matt,you know I'm not sure one way or the other If John had any Psychiatric treatment...however he may have been treated for his trances-I have heard this and that-and I have connected him to Danto-also he picked up a prescription just prior to Tim's abduction, but that could have been for his mother,who John said did crazy things,like hide in the bushes and scare the neighborhood kids---
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 2, 2011 21:32:58 GMT -5
When I met him In Alpena Mi....He said he had come to be near his daughter....but a Lt.on the Alpena Police Dept....told me he thought...John had come there to hide...I have to agree with that....as who would ever think ,you could find-The Oakland County Child Killer...In little old Alpena.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 3, 2011 22:51:29 GMT -5
Jack,John Xxxxxxxx attended Holy Name Grade School in Birmingham, not St. Regis like his brother, Tom. That is because St. Regis did not start as a parish until 1960(?). Since he had already been going to Holy Name the parrish boundries allowed him to be grandfather in at Holy Name (same parish as Tim King).
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 4, 2011 20:57:07 GMT -5
Jim,to the best of my knowledge all police witness from 1976-77 except for one gal that worked at the Landmark Restaurant -are dead.Now I'm not saying all witness in the Oakland County Child Killer cases are deceased,as I have more than a dozen credible witnesses that are alive,who tried to give their info to police in the 70's-But their info was discounted by the cops and no records or further interviews were conducted with them. And if the cops hold out ,they won't have to worry about these witnesses as they will also have passed on-That is a great Idea for them -Just think...they won't have to worry about their dept. budget being exhausted by cases that will be over 35 years old
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 6, 2011 2:01:10 GMT -5
A couple of months after all the Interviews with cops,I left the Alpena area,to work in San Diego-Seattle Washington-and Las Vegas-and for that 7 years ,I worked on trying to prove that John had nothing to do with the Occk-however in 1999 after a ton of research-I knew there was no changing the facts....it was John...*It's been 25 years....I decided I would join a Coldcase group on the internet...I stared receiving 25-50 e-mails a day wanting to know about this case. It was then I thought I would e-mail the attorney generals office, and the FBI, and ask every one else to do the same...so that is were it is at on this 24 of March 2001. cloakdagner.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=comments&action=display&thread=128
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 8, 2011 22:17:45 GMT -5
Helen, Did you know John's sister worked at NORTHVILLE STATE HOSPITAL
Hospital & Health Care industry
1974 – August 1980 (6 years) Ted- Note: yes I knew that Ted
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 9, 2011 11:34:05 GMT -5
Whats with all the emails-The above post is not a topic of discussion-I was just answering Ted's question.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 9, 2011 21:48:37 GMT -5
Helen, I heard John's Mom passed away is that true? Jack---Note: Yes Jack it is true.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 11, 2011 0:21:10 GMT -5
Helen,That IP address does not appear to be from the AG but rather Oakland County Law officials to me. I can check the Greenfield address out next week on my lunch hour as I work in Southfield and am somewhat close by. Ken
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 12, 2011 0:03:59 GMT -5
Helen, now that your not going to take any new info, does that mean you're just going to keep us hanging on the mystery renters? Geo---Note: No I'm not going to keep you hanging, however their is no direction to take this in-The man I need to talk to is dead-It is confirmed that he died in 2007-He was a Dr. of Internal Medicine and his wife was a mental health counselor-I think she passed away just recently (Not Confirmed). So how can I go forward with this? What I had planned to ask him-was why they moved to Miami right after Tim's body was found and left with out paying their rent- and why a Commercial laundry truck was at that rental property at odd hours twice a week-and who was the twenty something young man who always seem to hang a round there-did he drive a car or the laundry truck? What kind of car did he himself drive and what was the make of his wife's vehicle? And yada-yada- yada--I tried to get a hold of the person who gave me the original info-however I waited too long and she too has passed away-So I guess that is the end of that part of the story....
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