Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 6, 2011 18:12:49 GMT -5
TESTIMONY by HELEN DAGNER ~ MARCH 2001
During the winter months of 1976-77, four children between the ages of 10-
12 were abducted and killed in towns in and around Oakland County, a
suburban area north of Detroit. Authorities said the children were held
from 4 to 19 days before being killed. They had all been bathed after being
abducted, thus earning the offender the nickname the "BABYSITTER".
VICTIMS:
Mark Stebbins, 12 of Ferndale was last seen alive in an American Legion
Hall on February 13, 1976. His body was found February 19, 1976,in a
parking lot in Southfield. He was strangled and sexually assaulted, post-
mortem, with an object.
Jill Robinson, 12 of Royal Oak ran away from her home December 22, 1976.
Her body was found December 26, 1976 dumped along the side of interstate 75
in Troy. She was killed by a single shotgun blast to the face. She was
fully clothed and still wearing her backpack when she was found.
Kristine Mihelich, 10 was last seen alive January 2, 1977 at 3p.m. at a 7-
Eleven store in Berkley. Her fully clothed body was found 19 days later
dumped off a rural road in Franklin Village. She had been smothered to
death.
Timothy king, 11 was last in a Birmingham parking lot March 16, 1977, at
around 8:30 p.m. His body was found March 22, 1977 in a shallow ditch in
Livonia. He had been suffocated and sexually assaulted post-mortem, with an
object.
Now who would do such a horrible crime, and why?...Could it be a home town
person?
Yes, John lived in Birmingham, attended school, and graduated from High
School in Birmingham...and when he worked, it was also in Oakland
County...
Why did he do this? When I first met John, I didn't know he was a
killer , this was september 1991, and although I was married to a
police officer, I didn't even know that four children had been murder
in Oakland county...
I had met John for coffee at a restaurant...it was by invitation, the
mother of his child, had asked me if I wanted to meet John, I always went
for coffee at that time of day, so I said sure...little did I know
what was to become of this meeting.
The first question John asked me was so what are you doing with your
life...why I said this I will never know...but I said it...oh I'm going to
write a book on serial killers...he said that is a horrible idea, how could
you stand to be around some one like that? I remember saying, "I'm not
judgmental". We weren't through with the first cup of coffee, when he
asked what I knew about the Oakland child killings, I said nothing,
what do you know? The first thing he told me was the guy really took good
care of the children...fed them there favorite foods...cleaned them all
up...and was very nice to them. I said, "Well why did he kill
them?" John said he was saving them from a life as he knew it...that
he was probably living in what should have been a well to do community, yet
his mother might have had to baby-sit to make ends meet...I said,
"John it almost sounds like you know this guy!" He
said well I was interviewed by the original task force...I ask how was
that? His reply was they were interviewing every one in his age group...
We continued talking...then he said would you like to go for coffee
tonight, I could probably help you with your book...
I said well what I really need to do is talk to a serial killer...we all
laughed, and he said well maybe I can help you to find one.
This started a 9 month, daily coffee meeting with John, 3-6 hrs a day every
day...
That night I ask John what he thought the killers motive was? He started by
telling me, he felt the killer was inadequate socially, most likely
couldn't get a girl friend and wound up doing odd jobs like washing dishes.
He couldn't get a higher education felt he was cheated out of his rightful
place in society...I realized, at some point in the conversation...John was
no longer talking in the third person...he was talking in the first!
When I was driving John home that night, it started to snow, he was sitting
in the front passenger seat, the head lights were cutting a beam in front
of us...
John went into a trance like state and appear to be completely unaware of
anything I said to him or that he was even in the car going down the
road...upon arriving at his apartment he seemed to smoothly shift out of
the trance state...back to his normal self...the whole thing gave me the
creeps.
I didn't know at this time that I would see this same thing ...every time I
was with John, driving down the road, when it started to snow...It was at
least 3 weeks before I realized John was reliving the body drop off
nights...once I had this realization...I started asking more questions.
He was now talking in the first person...he thought his father had money
because he owned 2 homes, but let the family struggle financially, he
attended and all boys Catholic school, which made him feel more out of
place-something happen at that school, a boy was found dead, and there were
rumors of sexual assault, as John told me about this, I felt he had been
sexually assaulted...also a boy that was his friend fell off a water tower
to his death, John was present when it happen...my thought at the time was
John pushed him...he didn't go to the funeral...but his family did.
Just prior to the first murder, John's first girl friend, that he had hoped
to marry, dumped him-because he was broke, with no prospects....It was then
he stared thinking more about the injustices social & financial class
system and how he was a victim of it all-
He wanted to cause the upper class deep and permanent pain, he decided that
since money could be replaced the only way to do it was to strike at their
children, besides this was something he could do, were as taking their
money was beyond his ability...each killing gave him a sense of power and
significance and intellectual superiority...yet some how he felt he was
saving the children...
At the time of the murders, John was writing a book on the economic
collapse, and causing a major depression, ruining the upper
class...bringing them down to his level...he was still working on the book
when I last saw him.
We talked about the murders everyday...a very few words were ever spoken
that didn't included the Oakland County child killings...then one night
when we were having coffee I told John I was having difficulty...not having
ever been to Oakland County...figuring out the body drop off sites...he
took 4 place-mats...and drew the areas...I had never seen anyone draw maps
like that...they were perfect...just like a store bought map...I was
impressed...the next day is when I called the Birmingham police and told
them they had to see these maps...and they had to talk to john as he seem
to have a lot of inside info.
I remember their telling me, they would have to have more info...so that
night at coffee I told John, I don't think you are the killer and you need
to give me some information about each one of the kids that only the
killer ..and the police...and the family would know...he said are you nuts?
When he realized I was going to leave...or he thought I was thinking less
of him...he said, "I put a chicken bone in Tim's pocket" I
told him I thought I had heard that before, then he said
"Kristine had little orange or pink things on her slack's...Jill had a
book in her back pack and a quarter in her pocket."
One of the boys he dropped off with no shoes...he ended up telling me 300
plus matches to the crimes...then the police came up...he took 2
polygraph's...showed them a pass port were he was out of the country at the
death of one child...and they let him walk...
I told them Johns passport was a fake...that he had wanted to go into the
second pass port business...but they just couldn't get be on the pass port.
I remember when they called me, late one night at my daughters...he's not
are man Helen...I couldn't believe what he was saying...when they mention
the pass port...I asked if they had someone who knew about these things, to
check it out...they said no...I then asked, did you ask him were he stayed
aboard? No....did you ask him were he ate, who he talked to. NO....well did
you check with INTER-POL, yes...but they couldn't confirm...
I remember thinking...COP'S!!! In fact, I said it a loud...my daughter, a
detective, just looked at me...the next day I called Mr. Robinson, in fact
John had given me his number, I came right out and told him the name of the
book in his daughters back pack...the next day Det. Anger and some other
officer came up to Alpena.. I gave them a sample of John's hair and a note
book of facts, we drove by John's apartment.
They took some photos...I gave them a photo of John...I didn't realize Det.
Anger, had his own suspect...David Norberg...who's body he would exhume
some 8 years later, trying to match his DNA, to a hair found on Tim...so
many years had gone by, but when I read were the DNA didn't match...I had
to call Anger again and ask him if John's hair had matched...he didn't even
remember my giving it to him...he still works with Jerry Tobias on the
case...but he will probably go to his grave...thinking Norberg is the
man....butI know better, no child would have gone with Norberg, as he
always smelled of liquer. He couldn't feed him self...much less the
children, and he certainly wouldn't of bathed the children...and he had
nowhere to keep them for the length of time they were held.
8 years after he died, his wife shows up with a necklace...with Kristine's
name on it...that was suppose to have been in his personal stuff...it may
have been...but it took 8 years to find...when the man didn't own a shoe
box full of stuff...besides, I already had met the killer...and yes a child
would have gone with John...3 weeks ago Tobias told me yes we have to talk
to John. So the next day, I called Det. Anger...
I thought well if there going to talk to John, I will give them some of my
hold back info...he was to busy to talk...was on his way out of the
office...when he didn't return my call...I realized it was the old smoke-
and mirrors game again. No one was in search of a child killer, at least no
one I knew.
Somewhere, would I find these people in Oakland County who were still
alight with public outcry over the seemingly never ending spate of murders.
It's been 25 years....I decided I would join a Coldcase group on the
internet...I stared receiving 25-50 e-mails a day wanting to know about
this case. It was then I thought I would e-mail the attorney generals
office, and the FBI, and ask every one else to do the same...so that is
were it is at on this 24 of March 2001.
During the winter months of 1976-77, four children between the ages of 10-
12 were abducted and killed in towns in and around Oakland County, a
suburban area north of Detroit. Authorities said the children were held
from 4 to 19 days before being killed. They had all been bathed after being
abducted, thus earning the offender the nickname the "BABYSITTER".
VICTIMS:
Mark Stebbins, 12 of Ferndale was last seen alive in an American Legion
Hall on February 13, 1976. His body was found February 19, 1976,in a
parking lot in Southfield. He was strangled and sexually assaulted, post-
mortem, with an object.
Jill Robinson, 12 of Royal Oak ran away from her home December 22, 1976.
Her body was found December 26, 1976 dumped along the side of interstate 75
in Troy. She was killed by a single shotgun blast to the face. She was
fully clothed and still wearing her backpack when she was found.
Kristine Mihelich, 10 was last seen alive January 2, 1977 at 3p.m. at a 7-
Eleven store in Berkley. Her fully clothed body was found 19 days later
dumped off a rural road in Franklin Village. She had been smothered to
death.
Timothy king, 11 was last in a Birmingham parking lot March 16, 1977, at
around 8:30 p.m. His body was found March 22, 1977 in a shallow ditch in
Livonia. He had been suffocated and sexually assaulted post-mortem, with an
object.
Now who would do such a horrible crime, and why?...Could it be a home town
person?
Yes, John lived in Birmingham, attended school, and graduated from High
School in Birmingham...and when he worked, it was also in Oakland
County...
Why did he do this? When I first met John, I didn't know he was a
killer , this was september 1991, and although I was married to a
police officer, I didn't even know that four children had been murder
in Oakland county...
I had met John for coffee at a restaurant...it was by invitation, the
mother of his child, had asked me if I wanted to meet John, I always went
for coffee at that time of day, so I said sure...little did I know
what was to become of this meeting.
The first question John asked me was so what are you doing with your
life...why I said this I will never know...but I said it...oh I'm going to
write a book on serial killers...he said that is a horrible idea, how could
you stand to be around some one like that? I remember saying, "I'm not
judgmental". We weren't through with the first cup of coffee, when he
asked what I knew about the Oakland child killings, I said nothing,
what do you know? The first thing he told me was the guy really took good
care of the children...fed them there favorite foods...cleaned them all
up...and was very nice to them. I said, "Well why did he kill
them?" John said he was saving them from a life as he knew it...that
he was probably living in what should have been a well to do community, yet
his mother might have had to baby-sit to make ends meet...I said,
"John it almost sounds like you know this guy!" He
said well I was interviewed by the original task force...I ask how was
that? His reply was they were interviewing every one in his age group...
We continued talking...then he said would you like to go for coffee
tonight, I could probably help you with your book...
I said well what I really need to do is talk to a serial killer...we all
laughed, and he said well maybe I can help you to find one.
This started a 9 month, daily coffee meeting with John, 3-6 hrs a day every
day...
That night I ask John what he thought the killers motive was? He started by
telling me, he felt the killer was inadequate socially, most likely
couldn't get a girl friend and wound up doing odd jobs like washing dishes.
He couldn't get a higher education felt he was cheated out of his rightful
place in society...I realized, at some point in the conversation...John was
no longer talking in the third person...he was talking in the first!
When I was driving John home that night, it started to snow, he was sitting
in the front passenger seat, the head lights were cutting a beam in front
of us...
John went into a trance like state and appear to be completely unaware of
anything I said to him or that he was even in the car going down the
road...upon arriving at his apartment he seemed to smoothly shift out of
the trance state...back to his normal self...the whole thing gave me the
creeps.
I didn't know at this time that I would see this same thing ...every time I
was with John, driving down the road, when it started to snow...It was at
least 3 weeks before I realized John was reliving the body drop off
nights...once I had this realization...I started asking more questions.
He was now talking in the first person...he thought his father had money
because he owned 2 homes, but let the family struggle financially, he
attended and all boys Catholic school, which made him feel more out of
place-something happen at that school, a boy was found dead, and there were
rumors of sexual assault, as John told me about this, I felt he had been
sexually assaulted...also a boy that was his friend fell off a water tower
to his death, John was present when it happen...my thought at the time was
John pushed him...he didn't go to the funeral...but his family did.
Just prior to the first murder, John's first girl friend, that he had hoped
to marry, dumped him-because he was broke, with no prospects....It was then
he stared thinking more about the injustices social & financial class
system and how he was a victim of it all-
He wanted to cause the upper class deep and permanent pain, he decided that
since money could be replaced the only way to do it was to strike at their
children, besides this was something he could do, were as taking their
money was beyond his ability...each killing gave him a sense of power and
significance and intellectual superiority...yet some how he felt he was
saving the children...
At the time of the murders, John was writing a book on the economic
collapse, and causing a major depression, ruining the upper
class...bringing them down to his level...he was still working on the book
when I last saw him.
We talked about the murders everyday...a very few words were ever spoken
that didn't included the Oakland County child killings...then one night
when we were having coffee I told John I was having difficulty...not having
ever been to Oakland County...figuring out the body drop off sites...he
took 4 place-mats...and drew the areas...I had never seen anyone draw maps
like that...they were perfect...just like a store bought map...I was
impressed...the next day is when I called the Birmingham police and told
them they had to see these maps...and they had to talk to john as he seem
to have a lot of inside info.
I remember their telling me, they would have to have more info...so that
night at coffee I told John, I don't think you are the killer and you need
to give me some information about each one of the kids that only the
killer ..and the police...and the family would know...he said are you nuts?
When he realized I was going to leave...or he thought I was thinking less
of him...he said, "I put a chicken bone in Tim's pocket" I
told him I thought I had heard that before, then he said
"Kristine had little orange or pink things on her slack's...Jill had a
book in her back pack and a quarter in her pocket."
One of the boys he dropped off with no shoes...he ended up telling me 300
plus matches to the crimes...then the police came up...he took 2
polygraph's...showed them a pass port were he was out of the country at the
death of one child...and they let him walk...
I told them Johns passport was a fake...that he had wanted to go into the
second pass port business...but they just couldn't get be on the pass port.
I remember when they called me, late one night at my daughters...he's not
are man Helen...I couldn't believe what he was saying...when they mention
the pass port...I asked if they had someone who knew about these things, to
check it out...they said no...I then asked, did you ask him were he stayed
aboard? No....did you ask him were he ate, who he talked to. NO....well did
you check with INTER-POL, yes...but they couldn't confirm...
I remember thinking...COP'S!!! In fact, I said it a loud...my daughter, a
detective, just looked at me...the next day I called Mr. Robinson, in fact
John had given me his number, I came right out and told him the name of the
book in his daughters back pack...the next day Det. Anger and some other
officer came up to Alpena.. I gave them a sample of John's hair and a note
book of facts, we drove by John's apartment.
They took some photos...I gave them a photo of John...I didn't realize Det.
Anger, had his own suspect...David Norberg...who's body he would exhume
some 8 years later, trying to match his DNA, to a hair found on Tim...so
many years had gone by, but when I read were the DNA didn't match...I had
to call Anger again and ask him if John's hair had matched...he didn't even
remember my giving it to him...he still works with Jerry Tobias on the
case...but he will probably go to his grave...thinking Norberg is the
man....butI know better, no child would have gone with Norberg, as he
always smelled of liquer. He couldn't feed him self...much less the
children, and he certainly wouldn't of bathed the children...and he had
nowhere to keep them for the length of time they were held.
8 years after he died, his wife shows up with a necklace...with Kristine's
name on it...that was suppose to have been in his personal stuff...it may
have been...but it took 8 years to find...when the man didn't own a shoe
box full of stuff...besides, I already had met the killer...and yes a child
would have gone with John...3 weeks ago Tobias told me yes we have to talk
to John. So the next day, I called Det. Anger...
I thought well if there going to talk to John, I will give them some of my
hold back info...he was to busy to talk...was on his way out of the
office...when he didn't return my call...I realized it was the old smoke-
and mirrors game again. No one was in search of a child killer, at least no
one I knew.
Somewhere, would I find these people in Oakland County who were still
alight with public outcry over the seemingly never ending spate of murders.
It's been 25 years....I decided I would join a Coldcase group on the
internet...I stared receiving 25-50 e-mails a day wanting to know about
this case. It was then I thought I would e-mail the attorney generals
office, and the FBI, and ask every one else to do the same...so that is
were it is at on this 24 of March 2001.