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Post by Helen Dagner on Mar 31, 2013 22:18:35 GMT -5
This is a letter I sent to Jerry Tobias following a phone conversation that we had a few months before he passed. He had wanted me to explain Johns motive to him,as he just couldn't wrap his mind a round why John would take kids who's parents weren't wealthy,in order to get back at a rich society, who John felt had done him and injustice-Dear Jerry, I understand your question on why John would kill children of non-Wealthy parents if he had a personal vendetta against the "Wealthy and Privileged Upper Class" who he thought snubbed him at every turn. John came from what all accounts, was a seething pressure cooker of mental abnormalities. His mom was, unfortunately, severely disturbed. Unsympathetic and cold father figure. Elevated family expectations, shamefully unfulfilled. College drop out (another failure), recently dumped by his girlfriend (frustrated libido) and etc. So as you can see, John had a lot to get even with privileged society for. However, during all of this, John's personal experience was with people who were for the most part, not rich, but ranged from the solidly Upper Middle Class to the well off. John did not rub up against the fabulously Rich on a daily basis. He did not expect to be welcomed as an equal by the really Rich. No, his beef was with those who genuinely occupied the social rung (Upper middle Class) he felt himself to be deserving of. Thwarted, humiliated, forced to be an imposter, feeling inferior, a phony... So, he struck out at the social structure (and the geographical area) he had the emotional investment in, which is the Upper Middle Class, in that area, which made up the texture of his day to day life. Furthermore, all of this emotional drama was being played out on the faulty psychological foundation of the troubled family home situation rife with mental and emotional dysfunction. These psycho-pathological underpinnings erected in early life by John as necessary defense mechanism expressed themselves in the symbolic destruction of his own family (Thus two boys and two girls). At that point, it was mission accomplished. John had no reason to kill anyone else. My Best Regards, Helen
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 1, 2013 22:55:07 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 1, 2013 23:30:37 GMT -5
The usual motives do not apply in these most unusual abduction-murder cases,then what does fit? So far only the one offered by John.He said, he kidnapped & killed the children to show the rich upper class of the community that they were no better than he was,and that they were as vulnerable as he was to the cruelties & Injustices of life & society.He claims his motive was to strike a blow to the privileged rich snobs & since he couldn't do anything to bring them down financially or materially,he could still get them through their children & teach them the lesson they so sorely needed,and he so dearly wanted to teach them. It was nothing sexual,nor was there any personal,animosity toward the Kids. In fact he so liked and respected kids that he clean them up so they were presentable and were in no way made to look degraded. If as he said his aim was to shake-up higher society,he certainly succeeded,everyone regardless of wealth or status was very shaken up. Also,as perhaps and unintended bonus,he went from being (He felt),snubbed,slighted and considered insignificant to being almost instantly catapulted to the very height of importance. Now,he was the one that matter,compared to him all others paled to insignificance....He was the one everyone was talking about and thinking about above everyone, from the Mayor & the Chief of Police--To the Bankers & The Judge....It was his presence that dominated--The TV, the Newspapers & Radio News-It was his Dark & unseen shadow that cast fear in the hearts of all--With seemingly almost supernatural ability and cunning ,he was snatching kids off the street in broad daylight...right out from under the cops and everyone else s noses. In the press and in the minds of citizens he took on near mystical proportions...like a reincarnated Jack The Ripper,he held and entire community in the grip of fear that was almost panic...talk about salve for a wounded Ego,the high he got from the sense of power must have been absolutely intoxicating,possibly causing him to commit more killings then he had originally intended to .In any event he sure brought the rich to their knees,He Symbolically subjugated the snobbish upper class,all of which is the only motive I have heard that really fits the nature and details of this series of terrible crimes....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 22:58:18 GMT -5
OCCK HD ARCHIVES - Video #15
The OCCK HD Archives project now goes directly to Helen for her own personal and up close discussion about John and how for 20 years she has researched and tried to convince the OCCK task force. A very compelling story no matter what viewpoint you may have.
In Helen's Own Words - Part 1
Helen first meets John through his Daughter's mother. Public released photos of John as a young man from school yearbooks, the true story of John and his weirdness right from the start, the maps of OCCK locations drawn by John at the Big Boy on restaurant placemats and recently resurfaced from Barry King's FOIA request, a close zoomed up tour through two of the maps drawn by John, the story of Anthony Mitchell and his water-tower incident told by John, an uncovered artifact taken right from John's apartment 20 years ago and recently recovered from old storage which may shed some light on John's fake passport endeavor.
Note - This video released today, September 3, 2011, marks the 20 year anniversary of Helen meeting John.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 23:00:47 GMT -5
Helen's first contact with Tom Robinson (Jill's dad) about John, her first contact with police over the OCCK details given from John, excerpt from Jill's favorite song Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and confirmed by a cousin, conceptual view of Hunter Maple Complex from 1977 where Tim was abducted and it's distinct shape from John's map. the various police departments listed on John's maps, parts of John's interview with police from FOIA docs, the inconclusive search for John's passport records and the inquiry of the first interview with John from 1977 with no passport reference back then, the book Wolf in Sheep's Clothing by Tommy McIntyre lend to John from Helen, an excerpt from the book that includes an interview with the first eyewitness account to Tim's abduction and the description of the man talking to Tim standing near a blue Gremlin.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 23:02:32 GMT -5
In Helen's Own Words - Part 3
Mystery youtuber 'MJH1922' promotes Helen's videos on his official playlist, the first visit of Birmingham police to John's apartment, John's list of stolen goods from his apartment including 115 books that were pawned locally in downtown Alpena, more details of the hanging wall art piece missing from McKinney's murder/gallery including color display from memory, inconclusive results from John's polygraph test in 2009 in Georgia from FOIA docs, the fallacy that the police presented for years about a coincidence surrounding Helen that caused the lack of investigation taken right from FOIA docs, how this has impacted the investigation for 20 years and still counting, interview with John's sister from 1992 and in contrast to what she has written on the internet in later years, interesting findings of the sketch of the Mark lookalike from Chris Busch murder/suicide with what appears to be someone's initials, "JH", and some unique cursive style to John's maps.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 18, 2013 3:01:08 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 18, 2013 3:09:09 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 19, 2013 7:44:04 GMT -5
I want to start this off and tell you that I have a lot of hours into these cases over a 21 yr year time period...and only a couple of things come to my mind....at least once a week....and one of those items -*is the phone call that John received {while staying at my friend Scotts Homeless Shelter for men in Alpena Mi}.I have posted a little about this before...but thought I would touch on it once for all the new readers-This is the call that I eavesdrop on from the upstairs extension-It took place just prior to Johns scheduled Polygraphs-When the call came in...John was pacing back & forth...so I thought boy this must be of great importance...well when I picked up the phone...I couldn't believe my ears..John was frantic...as he told or I should say shouted at his sister what will I do-what will I do???....and the sister in a very stern & commanding voice told him...You will get out of their before those crazy women-find out the family secret! { by crazy women -I assume she meant the mother of his child and me} John was just so frustrated...that he started to blubber-I will go over seas-I will go to Florida first-Just like the last time....The sister started talking in even a stronger voice....saying -Just get out of there now!!....Sooo what did I do?...Well not what I should have...which was staying and listing to the rest of the conversation...I go run down to the Alpena Police Dept & have the Deputy Police Chief call Studt at the Birmingham police dept....because I thought John was going to take off before he took the polygraphs....Like what did I think The BPD could do at this time?....But anyway the point here is that the phone conversation did take place-the contents were very weird-the timing of the phone conversation was too much to be coincidental.....The voices were stressed and strained more than any conversation I had ever heard ....over the years I have contacted a few of the family members asking about the family secret...but they don't want to talk about it....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 20, 2013 12:21:27 GMT -5
When The Oakland County Child Murders took place,I was married to a police officer and I owned a News paper. But I knew nothing about,the murders,until one day in 1991,When I was in Alpena Michigan helping out with and arson investigation,and the gal I had to interview who was the mother of the two boys,that were persons of interest. She lived next door to my son apartment,so after I visited with Woody for a while,I ran next door. I had know this woman for a while,so when I came in to her house,we were talking about everything but what I was there for,she said lets go into the kitchen and I will make us a cup of coffee.When we enter the next room,there was this guy kneeling down tying this little girls shoes,and he didn't look normal to me,and every time he looked down at her shoes,his eyes would get real big. I remember saying to Xxxxx,who is that goof? She said,well that is Xxxxx father,I was shocked,as this gal was really good looking and yet I never knew of her dating.She introduced me to John,it was brief,then she wanted me to come in the kitchen ,right away,said we had to talk-The first words out of her mouth were,Helen,I think John is the Oakland County Child Killer or The Nylon Stocking Rapist....I'm just looking at her and I was dumfound,she had just told me -he was the father of her child! So she starts whispering,he told me one day when I was standing at the sink with my back to him,she said she was so shocked ,that she didn't even turn a round he was interviewed by the Occk Task Force,back in 1977-78-Finally I had to stop her as I couldn't even digest what she was telling me-She said you know the four children that were abducted and murder in Oakland County,I said I do not know a thing about this! She said well you were married to a cop,how come you don't know anything about this? Didn't you run story's about it in your Newspapers? I said nope,I honestly never heard about it,I guess I was to busy with all my political expos as and campaigning for the Democratic Party during that time. Then she asked if I would help her find out if he is,boy I said that is a very long time ago,and then she reminded me the cases were still unsolved and that I had a lot of Law Enforcement contacts. I told her I would have to talk to John more and if I thought he could be,then I will start asking my buddies about the cases. She said well I know we could get him to go for coffee at the Round Table.I went for coffee everyday a couple of times,so I thought it was a great Idea. So I met her and John out side of the restaurant,and we walked in together,we were not siting down for more than five min. when the topic came -up. John asked if I had been married to a cop and what did I know about the Oakland County Child Killings? I said nothing. He start telling me how the killer took good care of the children,that the killer had fed them their favorite foods,I said oh really and what kind of food did he feed them,he rattle off a lot of different combinations and told me what child had eaten this and that and when he got to Tim,he went on and on about the chicken,and even blurted out "I cooked the chicken" I looked at Xxxxx and she was just as shocked as I was,we couldn't believe he said that...I decided right then and there-yep I need to look into this guy! when we were about finish with are coffee, John asked me what was I going to do with my life? I said ,well I guess I will write a book on Serial Killers,his response was -well do you want to go for coffee at the Big Boy tonight,maybe I can help you find one. We all laugh and I said sure that would be a big help....( To be continued)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2013 1:01:25 GMT -5
TESTIMONY by HELEN DAGNER ~ MARCH 2001
During the winter months of 1976-77, four children between the ages of 10- 12 were abducted and killed in towns in and around Oakland County, a suburban area north of Detroit. Authorities said the children were held from 4 to 19 days before being killed. They had all been bathed after being abducted, thus earning the offender the nickname the "BABYSITTER".
VICTIMS:
Mark Stebbins, 12 of Ferndale was last seen alive in an American Legion Hall on February 13, 1976. His body was found February 19, 1976,in a parking lot in Southfield. He was strangled and sexually assaulted, post- mortem, with an object.
Jill Robinson, 12 of Royal Oak ran away from her home December 22, 1976. Her body was found December 26, 1976 dumped along the side of interstate 75 in Troy. She was killed by a single shotgun blast to the face. She was fully clothed and still wearing her backpack when she was found. Kristine Mihelich, 10 was last seen alive January 2, 1977 at 3p.m. at a 7- Eleven store in Berkley. Her fully clothed body was found 19 days later dumped off a rural road in Franklin Village. She had been smothered to death. Timothy king, 11 was last in a Birmingham parking lot March 16, 1977, at around 8:30 p.m. His body was found March 22, 1977 in a shallow ditch in Livonia. He had been suffocated and sexually assaulted post-mortem, with an object.
Now who would do such a horrible crime, and why?...Could it be a home town person? Yes, John lived in Birmingham, attended school, and graduated from High School in Birmingham...and when he worked, it was also in Oakland County... Why did he do this? When I first met John, I didn't know he was a killer , this was september 1991, and although I was married to a police officer, I didn't even know that four children had been murder in Oakland county... I had met John for coffee at a restaurant...it was by invitation, the mother of his child, had asked me if I wanted to meet John, I always went for coffee at that time of day, so I said sure...little did I know what was to become of this meeting. The first question John asked me was so what are you doing with your life...why I said this I will never know...but I said it...oh I'm going to write a book on serial killers...he said that is a horrible idea, how could you stand to be around some one like that? I remember saying, "I'm not judgmental". We weren't through with the first cup of coffee, when he asked what I knew about the Oakland child killings, I said nothing, what do you know? The first thing he told me was the guy really took good care of the children...fed them there favorite foods...cleaned them all up...and was very nice to them. I said, "Well why did he kill them?" John said he was saving them from a life as he knew it...that he was probably living in what should have been a well to do community, yet his mother might have had to baby-sit to make ends meet...I said, "John it almost sounds like you know this guy!" He said well I was interviewed by the original task force...I ask how was that? His reply was they were interviewing every one in his age group... We continued talking...then he said would you like to go for coffee tonight, I could probably help you with your book... I said well what I really need to do is talk to a serial killer...we all laughed, and he said well maybe I can help you to find one.
This started a 9 month, daily coffee meeting with John, 3-6 hrs a day every day... That night I ask John what he thought the killers motive was? He started by telling me, he felt the killer was inadequate socially, most likely couldn't get a girl friend and wound up doing odd jobs like washing dishes. He couldn't get a higher education felt he was cheated out of his rightful place in society...I realized, at some point in the conversation...John was no longer talking in the third person...he was talking in the first! When I was driving John home that night, it started to snow, he was sitting in the front passenger seat, the head lights were cutting a beam in front of us... John went into a trance like state and appear to be completely unaware of anything I said to him or that he was even in the car going down the road...upon arriving at his apartment he seemed to smoothly shift out of the trance state...back to his normal self...the whole thing gave me the creeps. I didn't know at this time that I would see this same thing ...every time I was with John, driving down the road, when it started to snow...It was at least 3 weeks before I realized John was reliving the body drop off nights...once I had this realization...I started asking more questions. He was now talking in the first person...he thought his father had money because he owned 2 homes, but let the family struggle financially, he attended and all boys Catholic school, which made him feel more out of place-something happen at that school, a boy was found dead, and there were rumors of sexual assault, as John told me about this, I felt he had been sexually assaulted...also a boy that was his friend fell off a water tower to his death, John was present when it happen...my thought at the time was John pushed him...he didn't go to the funeral...but his family did. Just prior to the first murder, John's first girl friend, that he had hoped to marry, dumped him-because he was broke, with no prospects....It was then he stared thinking more about the injustices social & financial class system and how he was a victim of it all- He wanted to cause the upper class deep and permanent pain, he decided that since money could be replaced the only way to do it was to strike at their children, besides this was something he could do, were as taking their money was beyond his ability...each killing gave him a sense of power and significance and intellectual superiority...yet some how he felt he was saving the children... At the time of the murders, John was writing a book on the economic collapse, and causing a major depression, ruining the upper class...bringing them down to his level...he was still working on the book when I last saw him. We talked about the murders everyday...a very few words were ever spoken that didn't included the Oakland County child killings...then one night when we were having coffee I told John I was having difficulty...not having ever been to Oakland County...figuring out the body drop off sites...he took 4 place-mats...and drew the areas...I had never seen anyone draw maps like that...they were perfect...just like a store bought map...I was impressed...the next day is when I called the Birmingham police and told them they had to see these maps...and they had to talk to john as he seem to have a lot of inside info. I remember their telling me, they would have to have more info...so that night at coffee I told John, I don't think you are the killer and you need to give me some information about each one of the kids that only the killer ..and the police...and the family would know...he said are you nuts? When he realized I was going to leave...or he thought I was thinking less of him...he said, "I put a chicken bone in Tim's pocket" I told him I thought I had heard that before, then he said "Kristine had little orange or pink things on her slack's...Jill had a book in her back pack and a quarter in her pocket." One of the boys he dropped off with no shoes...he ended up telling me 300 plus matches to the crimes...then the police came up...he took 2 polygraph's...showed them a pass port were he was out of the country at the death of one child...and they let him walk... I told them Johns passport was a fake...that he had wanted to go into the second pass port business...but they just couldn't get be on the pass port. I remember when they called me, late one night at my daughters...he's not are man Helen...I couldn't believe what he was saying...when they mention the pass port...I asked if they had someone who knew about these things, to check it out...they said no...I then asked, did you ask him were he stayed aboard? No....did you ask him were he ate, who he talked to. NO....well did you check with INTER-POL, yes...but they couldn't confirm... I remember thinking...COP'S!!! In fact, I said it a loud...my daughter, a detective, just looked at me...the next day I called Mr. Robinson, in fact John had given me his number, I came right out and told him the name of the book in his daughters back pack...the next day Det. Anger and some other officer came up to Alpena.. I gave them a sample of John's hair and a note book of facts, we drove by John's apartment. They took some photos...I gave them a photo of John...I didn't realize Det. Anger, had his own suspect...David Norberg...who's body he would exhume some 8 years later, trying to match his DNA, to a hair found on Tim...so many years had gone by, but when I read were the DNA didn't match...I had to call Anger again and ask him if John's hair had matched...he didn't even remember my giving it to him...he still works with Jerry Tobias on the case...but he will probably go to his grave...thinking Norberg is the man....butI know better, no child would have gone with Norberg, as he always smelled of liquer. He couldn't feed him self...much less the children, and he certainly wouldn't of bathed the children...and he had nowhere to keep them for the length of time they were held.
8 years after he died, his wife shows up with a necklace...with Kristine's name on it...that was suppose to have been in his personal stuff...it may have been...but it took 8 years to find...when the man didn't own a shoe box full of stuff...besides, I already had met the killer...and yes a child would have gone with John...3 weeks ago Tobias told me yes we have to talk to John. So the next day, I called Det. Anger... I thought well if there going to talk to John, I will give them some of my hold back info...he was to busy to talk...was on his way out of the office...when he didn't return my call...I realized it was the old smoke- and mirrors game again. No one was in search of a child killer, at least no one I knew.
Somewhere, would I find these people in Oakland County who were still alight with public outcry over the seemingly never ending spate of murders.
It's been 25 years....I decided I would join a Coldcase group on the internet...I stared receiving 25-50 e-mails a day wanting to know about this case. It was then I thought I would e-mail the attorney generals office, and the FBI, and ask every one else to do the same...so that is were it is at on this 24 of March 2001.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2013 22:54:48 GMT -5
Why would John have a collection of books about latent prints..how to pass a polygraph-how to change your identity,with out leaving a paper trail--and many books on forensics...and how would he know Jill's book was inscribed? -John had motive-means and opportunity-In checking a perpetual calender,he was off work or unemployed on the dates of every pick up,murders,and drop off--How could he have a passport that showed he was out of the country on the date of one child death?..because he had two of them-i saw them..and he told me one was fake-and then there were the letters,were he ordered the passport-and was going to go into the 2nd passport business. Then there is his alibi..his brother?I think they should ask ,the brother if he will take a polygraph ...or what about the sister,that called John before he went for the poly-and said-get out of there...before they find out the family secret...maybe she would take one too...about her knowledge of these events...
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 21, 2013 23:23:36 GMT -5
John drove these areas everyday -over and over~ Mark: Distance from where taken: 9 Mile Rd. Ferndale 11 miles, 22 mins, Ferndale Police Distance to drop: 10 Mile & Greenfield Rd: 8.4 miles, 15 mins, Southfield Police Jill: Distance from where taken: 13 Mile at Woodward: 5.1 miles, 10 mins, Royal Oak Police Distance to drop: On I -75: About 5 miles 10 min, Troy Police Kristine: Distance from where taken: 12 mile and Greenfield Rd: 6.2 miles, 13 mins, Berkley Police Distance to drop: Bruce Lane, 13 mile and Telegraph Rd: 3 miles, 6 mins, Franklin Police Tim: Distance from where taken: 15 Mile at Woodward: 2.6 miles, 5 mins, Birmingham Police Distance to drop: 8 mile Rd at Farmington: 13 miles, 22 mins. Livonia Mi Police
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 22, 2013 23:42:44 GMT -5
From The FOIA PAPERS -Johns Interview and the girl Friends stated the same-that is how they had sex!!The first three children were found lying on their backs with their arms crossed over their chests. The source stumbled on the connection between this case and ritual or cult activity when trying to connect a possible acronym to the cities the children were kidnapped from and the cities where the bodies were left. The forth victim, Timothy King, was found dumped on the side of the road. The source theorizes that because of the huge police presence that night the killers had a close call in Lathrop Village, and were therefore force to dispose of King’s body in Livonia by rolling it out of the van as they drove down Gill Road just prior to turning East onto 8 Mile Road.! Note another report that is WRONG-I will post how it should have read...as we continue-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 23, 2013 0:06:09 GMT -5
How could John tell me that Tim's middle name was John,in 1991,even though I had Tims Michigan Death Index papers -In 2004,I still had to ask Cathy in 2006, because that( J )could have been James *Name: Timothy J King Birth Date: 9 Jul 1965 Death Date: 22 Mar 1977 Gender: Male Residence: Birmingham, Oakland, Michigan Place of Death: Livonia, Wayne, Michigan/{the Michigan death record dates}
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