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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 28, 2012 22:18:59 GMT -5
The psychological profile is more complex. The killer, says Dr. Danto, is a bisexual pedophiliac, anally retentive and obsessive-compulsive, with a paranoid, egocentric personality and a defectively integrated ego. Freely translated, that means he is a fanatically neat child molester who cares only for his own gratification and is condemned to repeat his own sexually traumatized history. "He is evening the score," says Danto, "for an abandonment experience somewhere in his early years. He is depriving the parent of a child the way he was deprived of a parent. He's a hunter, a predator. He picks kids who are alone, he knows what he's doing, and he's very, very careful not to leave clues."
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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 28, 2012 22:25:49 GMT -5
I'm having trouble posting tonight-So let me just mention this and I will try to post later-On the maps that John drew-you will see Danto's name written at the Top-also John drew me a complete map of how to get out to Danto's-and even put every tree leading up to his property-I personally think that John was stalking him-because of things that Danto was saying in Interviews-that John was not happy about-and I believe that was the reason he left Kris body so close to his home-( To Be Continued)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 28, 2012 22:48:10 GMT -5
Helen, way back when, I spoke with a retired cop about the bumper impressions in the snow where Kristine was dropped. This was on Bruce Lane, of course, so the subject of Dr. Danto came up. I took notes, which I had to dig around for just now. Two really weird things stand out. First, the guy went to the Ferndale PD and offered his services as well as his belief that Mark's murder was the work of a serial killer. Well, if Mark was the first victim, why would he make such a statement? Maybe because he was treating either Chris or John and KNEW or had serious reason to suspect that Jane Allen (and possibly others) was also a victim of this killer? The counter-argument is that he was just speculating just based on the fact that these other murders (of teenagers) had occurred in Oakland County. Danto was convinced that the killer left Kristine's body on Bruce Lane in order to personally confront him because of his involvement.
Second, and I find this really strange, when Danto appeared on t.v. to speak when Tim was missing, he was supposed to have given a subliminal message to the killer using the word "echo." They were hoping to goad the killer into leaving Tim's body on Echo Road in Bloomfield Township, and officers were assigned to stake out that road. Instead, Danto referred to the killer as a "squirrel." This suggested Squirrel Road, and the cops apparently had to quickly change course and stake out Squirrel Road. Now I don't know for a fact that Danto did not run this "squirrel" business by some of the task force before saying that on t.v., but my impression was that the guy did this on his own and the cops were caught off-guard.
So, (stick with me here--I know I sound crazy)--he subs in Squirrel Road for Echo Road, knowing that the area referenced in the note in Jane's pocket had relevance and that the killer would know that. In other words, the cops are going to figure out Jane's murder was involved, too, so give up because you are in too deep.
The guy isn't going to breach the doctor-patient privilege, but his patient doesn't know that for sure, so Danto gets close enough to the investigation to send a warning to the killer. The weak link in my speculation is that Danto might have found a way to breach the privilege if he knew who the killer was. But that is very debatable.
Danto then goes on to write/edit (with others) a book called The Human Side of Homicide. The book contains a compilation of the writings of numerous people, including Danto, who opens up the book with "A Psychiatric View of Those Who Kill." He ends by saying:
"This material clearly illustrates the fact that many violent and homicidal persons give early warning signs through their behavior. In my experience, these individuals are usually psychotic and usually suffering from either a schizophrenic reaction or paranoid type of personality trait disturbance. They are asking for help from others and communicating their need for control. When a homicide occurs, it is because that help and control has not been forthcoming and their cry for help has been unheard and unmet.
From my discussion, it is apparent that there have been many approaches to studying the psychological and psychodynamic factors in those who kill. Among those of us who deal with killers, study them, and treat them there has been a considerable move away from classical and traditional medical, psychiatric, and social models. Despite many insights that have developed from such research, there has been precious little money, talent or time devoted to this growing problem concerning the killer in society. . . . "
In a chapter called "Survivors of Homicide," he specifically notes that people who are related to or emotionally involved with the killer are victims, too. Of course all of this can be explained away just based simply on his training (the shrink-cop combo); the guy was just opining about an area he had studied and become an expert in. But thinking about that area described in the note and the obvious proximity of Squirrel Road, it really made me think.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 28, 2012 22:56:10 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 30, 2012 0:17:08 GMT -5
Helen, Bruce Lane has to be for “Bruce” Danto. What are the odds??? Did he also use the name “Allen” for his call to Danto as a reference to Jane Allen? Hmm. Jack
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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 30, 2012 23:30:18 GMT -5
Helen, Danto writes that the murderer "kills children to avenge some childhood hurt induced by his own parents toward who he is now venting angry feelings." That is a hell of a way to get back at your parents. In that chapter of the book, Danto seems to favor the explanation that many murderers are psychotic and usually have either a schizophrenic reaction or paranoid personality trait disturbance. Don't forget that at that time the insanity defense was very viable (pre-John Hinkley shooting Reagan). I bet he testified more often as a defense witness than a witness for the state.
Your description of John at times going into kind of a trance-like state seems consistent with mental illness.
As for the stuff in the Wolf book about the "Allen" letter sent to Danto and his trip to the gay bar to meet this Allen--the killer(s) could have just been f**king with Danto. The stuff John described to you about John knowing the layout of Danto's yard, stalking him, etc., was really strange. It could be that Danto was just ahead of his time when he came up with the profile and theories, as well as his plans for communicating with and flushing out the killer. The killer gets pissed off at Danto's involvement and messes with him (dumping Kristine's body on Bruce Lane, the phone call(s), the Allen letter, the meeting at a gay bar). Another possibility is that Danto had treated the killer or someone close to the killer and therefore knew about his childhood issues, making it much more simple to come up with the theories/profile. That is a leap, I know.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Nov 30, 2012 23:55:54 GMT -5
This is an Email I sent to answer one I had received from Cory-I'm not going to posts his-"" <cwilliams@lpdmail.com> I am about Hasting...John killed these kids...but Danto's little games took money away from this investigation....and he knew who killed these kids...because he got the details from John ....Danto was a Manipulator and he sure hosed the Task Force...If I can find that screen play of his -we will find out if Danto was in on the killings...I'm so d**n confused now...and I have Hundreds of more things to read and dozens of more people to talk to...but something is very wrong here....and then look at all the skills Danto had...But I do know he wrote that letter from Allen and he did write that fictitious 1980 book...{that has mostly facts in and used and alias}who does that kind of S-H-I-T Usually not people in his position....and I know he liked murder and violence..and always wanted to kill....and then their is all his fraud accusations-charges and buy outs...( NOTE-I was on to Danto -However before I figured it out-Danto had already passed away~)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 1, 2012 0:07:26 GMT -5
psychiatrist tries to shake up the murderer
Dr. Bruce Danto doesn't know who the murderer is, but probably what he is. The psychiatrist, who is also a deputy sheriff in neighboring St. Clair County, has worked on nearly 2,000 homicide cases (including the Jimmy Hoffa investigation), drawing up psychological profiles, hypnotizing witnesses to improve their recall and testifying as an expert witness himself. Consulted first in the Stebbins case, Danto, 50, has become the most vocal member of the task force—using TV to talk directly to the killer, cajoling him in open letters to the newspapers and setting himself up as a possible contact. "I'm in there to shake the apple tree," he says of his overtures to the killer, "to get him to blow his cool so that he will betray himself somehow—call me, write to me, take a shot at me, something."
For a man who lives in the killer's bailiwick—in a sprawling home in Birmingham, which he shares with his wife, Jean, 46, and their four children, ages 13 to 21—Danto's role as lightning rod may carry some risk. But he works for the police without fee and seems to relish the challenge. His most promising lead so far was a letter last spring from a man calling himself "Allen," who said he was the killer's roommate. Danto set a date by phone to meet him, but the man never appeared. Danto has since concluded that Allen either killed himself in a fever of guilt or was murdered for his indiscretion.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 3, 2012 3:50:23 GMT -5
BLK 01616-Birmingham Police Dept. Interview Johns Mom
and the house was not vacant for very long. The house was sold by her husband sometime around the time she was divorced. She said she believed that happened in about 1977. About 9 months before that or so, the husband moved out.
She said that they never owned the house on Squirrel Road or any property up there. She is not aware that the husband owned any property up there. She said the family relationship was characterized as terrible. Her husband, every time anyone would make a comment, she would tell him to shut up, and they were just trying to start an argument. was very upset when his father moved out of the house. However, he did not take on the traditional male head of the household roles. She said he was always working. He worked in restaurants. He had a very hard time growing up. He had no friends that she knew of during high school or after high school. She kept reiterating that he was always working, primarily a cook at various restaurants.
She said that he did very poorly in school, although he graduated. He got beat up when he was at Brother Rice by some unknown boys and did not want to go back to school, but his father made him go to school. She recalls an incident with a friend named where they were required to go back to the school on Saturdays to clean toilets as a disciplinary measure. only hobbies were painting.To be continued
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 3, 2012 4:41:52 GMT -5
These crimes affected many, many people—in hugely life-altering ways. Not only were the crimes unimaginable, but there were no answers. That’s why some of us ask if it is possible that the focus on the child porn industry, like the focus on the blue gremlin in 1977, is off-base?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 3, 2012 23:52:19 GMT -5
I appreciate all the questions you have sent in about Danto,and I do plan on answering them all, you have to realize that I have to look up all the answers for you-that takes time a lot of time-and I am working on several other Oakland County Child Murder Story's-which I need to get done,before all the New Information Breaks- However I will answer this-*Let me make this very clear-John is my number 1 suspect and always has been-I fell into the Danto information almost by accident-I was re-reading some notes of Johns..and came across the map that John drew of the road up to Dantos and his back yard..then I saw a bunch of one liners that I didn't really know what they meant-but they where to do with Danto...so I decided to go on line and read about Danto...but most of the stuff I wanted was deleted from the servers...so I called a colleague of Dantos out in San Diego...and one question led to another...and I got a whole new picture of Danto...so I dug some more and there it was -the letter Allen was suppose to have sent him...soon as I read it -I saw Danto himself in it...then I decided to re check out that rare Oakland County Child Killer book from 1980...and everything in there scream out Danto... I plan to post several of those pages so that you can make up your own mind-also to answer the question was John a friend of Danto's? I really do not think so-I think he hated Danto -because in several Interviews with different police agency-his mother and sister said John Hated Jews! -In my files I find that John always talked about Danto as If he had (One -up on Him)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 4, 2012 20:55:29 GMT -5
I'm not up to looking in my Occk files tonight-So will start this off with a Detroit Free Press story from their files-Which is a part of my collection- COULD NOT FIND THE "ALLEN" LETTER PRINTED IN ITS ENTIRETY IN NEWS ARTICLES BUT A DETROIT FREE PRESS ARTICLE OF SEPTEMBER 28, 1977 CONTAINS EXCERPTS OF IT. THE ARTICLE EXPLAINS: "Tip Number 9,693 is still troubling police of the Oakland County Task Force, though they've spent five months and hundreds of hours trying to trace it down. The tip was given to Dr. Bruce Danto, a Detroit psychiatrist, by a man who identified himself only as Allen. Allen told Danto that he is the roommate of the south Oakland County killer. . . . Allen wrote a long, pleading, poorly spelled letter to Danto which he mailed in Detroit on April 4. Danto received it at his office the next day and turned it over to task force officials. Since then, the task force has put in more time and effort trying to find Allen than on any other of the 12,544 tips it received, according to State Police Sgt. Joseph Krease, second in command of the unit. . . . 'I am dperite (desperate) and nearly gone crazy . . .' Allen wrote in the typed letter to Danto. 'This is for real I know who the killer is, I live with him I am his slave.' Allen said he has accompanied the killer, a man he calls Frank (the name is ficticious, according to Allen), when he looks for boys, but said he was not with the man when he kidnapped the four children who were killed. Allen claims he stayed with the children in an apartment in Detroit while Frank went to work, 'And no one can hear them as they gagged all the time,' he said. According to the letter, Frank owned a Gremlin, a car that has figured heavily in the investigation of the kidnap and murder of 11-year-old Timothy King of Birmingham. Allen said Frank was never stopped by police and has since junked the car. Allen said he met Frank in Vietnam and that the war had twisted his friend's mind. 'He killed a lot of little kids then with medals for it. Burned them to death, bombed them with napalm . . . He wants the rich people like people in Birmingham to suffer like all of us suffered to get nothing back for what we did for our country. He's not a monster like you think--he really loves children especially that little girl for three weeks not doing it because (he) hates children but doing it because (he) hates everybody else out there . . .' . . . Allen contacted [Danto] by phone on [April 10] promising to bring Polaroid pictures proving Frank killed the four children if Danto brought a letter of immunity from Gov. Milliken. Allen set up a rendezvous with Danto at 9 p.m. the following night at a homosexual bar along the Woodward corridor in Detroit. Allen never made contact with Danto. At that point, task force officials focused their investigation on the Palmer Park area of Detroit, which has a sizable homosexual community. But despite numerous interviews, police have failed to locate either Frank or Allen. Danto has made more appeals this fall in Sunday editions of the Detroit News but with no success. 'The man sounded very frightened, not cool and composed,' said Danto Tuesday. 'I don't think it was a hoax call.'" (FROM THE DETROIT FREE PRESS, Wed., Sept. 28, 1977) -* Note- I will tell you my theory soon
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 4, 2012 21:08:51 GMT -5
From Robertson Sr. File Page 174 ... had received the letter from Danto. "Well, let me just say this," Robertson said. "This guy Allen' could be a major break, or he could be a kook. ... Page 175 Sorry, this page's content is restricted. Page 177 Excuse me, are you Allen? Did you write me a letter recently?" Danto waited for an answer that the caller did not give. "Are you there? Okay. ... Page 182 Allen." He shook his head." Know anything else about him, like what he looks like?" "No, not really. He might be, well, I got a letter from him, ... Page 184 Moreover, the possibility exists that these roommates have only one vehicle between them, and that the author of the letter, "Allen" does not even own a ... Page 185 Sorry, this page's content is restricted. Page 192 Wouldn't give me his name, but says he knows that Allen guy that wrote Danto the letter. Says he's got some other information about the case too, ... Page 203 The white van may be associated with the killer's employment rather than the abduction [perhaps the delivery route Allen referred to in his letter to Danto ... Page 206 The killer is a delivery man, possibly associated with a linen company" (Jordan had not seen Allen's letter). "I think," he paused in his stream of ...
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 4, 2012 21:23:12 GMT -5
This is my work sheet -From an Interview with a guy that told me he was Allen-Talking to him for just a few min. -I knew he wasn't~a Detective I was working with about the Allen letter help me to make this list~ In no particular order:/I will be talking to "Allen" this afternoon/If you can think of any Questions I should ask him/then please get them to me before 11am....as I have a three hour window to call him.
1. Why are you coming forward now?
2. How can you assure me that you are in fact the same "Allen"?
3. Why did you write the letter and did you act alone or tell anybody else about it at the time or afterward? Where did you mail it from and can you describe what you put on the envelope?
4. Why did you mention the bar as a meeting place and did you go to the bar to watch for the police at the appointed time?
5. How old were you then?
6. How did you pick the names "Allen" and "Frank"? Why did you portray them as being in a master-slave relationship and as being gay?
7. How many times did you call Dr. Danto?
8. Do you recall what day/time?
9. What did Dr. Danto say to you?
10. Where did you call from?
11. Did you realize then or later that this had the potential to send the task force in the wrong direction?
12. Did you read about Danto's reaction in the newspaper?
13. Did you attempt to make any other contact with Danto at a later point?
12. Do you regret doing it?
You would need to talk to the police, but I have a feeling they won't do much with it--it makes them look bad and there's nothing they can do with it, really. But it is so important to demonstrate that someone is willing to come forward and it demonstrates what a joke this Allen letter is. If you are telling the truth, what do YOU think should be done with this information?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Dec 6, 2012 5:22:10 GMT -5
Danto said he first became fascinated with psychology at the age of 6 when he saw the movie "Blind Alley" the movie concerns psychology and violence, things that have become Danto's career....In the movie Ralph Bellamy played psychologist and Chester Morris was a desperate criminal who took Bellamy hostage so he could hide out in his home...Morris who had been hiding under barroom table when a policeman shot and killed his father.As he cowered below...his father fell across the table...all he saw from under the table -Danto said were the legs of the policeman who fired the shot and the blood falling off the table and dripping to the floor...after this the boy had dreams of being in jail and the rain coming down....of course,in the dream...the ba=s represented the policeman's legs and the rain was the dripping blood-once that was explained to the boy-the paralysis left him...Danto said the movie had a profound effect on me...I was deeply impressed that analysis of a dream like that could have an effect on a personality....
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