Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 14, 2013 7:22:45 GMT -5
Helen, it's all so mind boggling. It just doesn't sit right in my head that 2 of the most notorius serial child killers in Michigan...really nationally with OCCK..could live that close to one another and not have any connection at all. Don ----- Original Message -----
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 14, 2013 17:11:06 GMT -5
Helen, They have investigated John for so many years. Is there any hope? Dan Note:*According to Ann Rule in "The Stranger Beside Me", Ted Bundy's name came up and was dismissed three times as a suspect before they actually caught him.
He was good looking, charming, involved in the crisis help line and was politically active in the community.
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 15, 2013 5:34:17 GMT -5
Helen, I think that it is very strange that John could remember the date of Chris Busch suicide,when he told you it was the same day as your husbands only 5 years earlier and then he goes on to deny that he ever knew Busch,what do you make of that? Matt Note: Well Matt what is even stranger to me,is that he would remember the date of Nov.20th 1978,because even though the Michigan Death document list the date of Nov.20,1978...that was ac-truly the date his body was found ,however it is very clear,that he died most likely on the 17th of Nov.-but yet John remembers the date of Nov. 20th?? Hummm
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 15, 2013 5:46:06 GMT -5
Helen, What do you hear about BOB? His is the craziest theory about the Occk that I ever heard,yet the news media,gave him so much coverage,Why? Tim NOTE: I don't know were Bob is,maybe he retired,maybe he is writing a book,maybe he left the area...But I do know that his theory was NOT the craziest I have ever heard-Take a look at this. cloakdagner.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=debates&action=display&thread=156
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 15, 2013 8:57:50 GMT -5
Sterling Heights, MI | #14779 12 min ago
Some questions along with some possible speculation.
TruthDude wrote: <quoted text> Don't forget that there were TWO confessions in the OCCK case that would explain part of it in regard to Mark Stebbins. First, Chris Busch confessed to a local private polygraph examiner in what must have been 1977/78 that he was involved in the Tim King case. Reasoning~Wrote Was there details of Tim King’s abduction and murder specifically or OCCK in general ? There is a big difference here. Or was Tim King’s name referenced only because you were associated with him? I ask this because I thought the original context of Chris Busch’s confession was only in reference to Mark the 1st victim.
TruthDude wrote: <quoted text> Second, Gary Greene from Prison named Chris Busch as the killer of Mark Stebbins.. Reasoning~Wrote~ What does such a general claim like this mean? Busch acted alone and did everything by himself? Maybe one possibility is that Mark Stebbins might have been a previous sex victim of Chris Busch and Greene knew this. Since the first OCCK victim was Mark it may very well be a link back to Busch and that might have been the killer’s intention. The drawing of Mark at Busch suicide seems to signify that.
TruthDude wrote: <quoted text> Third, the only matching DNA of any level thus far is of Busch's known victim, James Gunnels, to K. Mihelich. Further, Busch himself claimed he sought out children in the very areas where those children were taken. Too many coincidences here to be discounted for any reasonable person. Reasoning~Wrote~ Reasonable person? Another reasonable answer from a reasonable person may be the killer knew Chris Busch and his operations very well. Perhaps a previous victim or previous associate of Chris Busch that tried to make it look like Chris Busch was responsible. Perhaps the killer knew this underground world very well. Perhaps the only revenge possible to Busch was to frame a serial killer to Busch. Hence the simulating sex with an object to make it look like Busch and his clan were involved. How else does this ever make any sense? Perhaps the killer planted Gunnels hair thinking it was Busch hair. Hard to tell who’s hair is whose taken from someone’s car. Maybe the obvious is just not that obvious! I would rather someone try to explain to me how someone like Chris Busch that never bothered to comb his own hair could have had sex, took care of these kids and killed them without leaving a single hair/finger print/sperm of his own on any of them?!? He didn’t seem to be that clever on getting caught with his other activities.
TruthDude wrote: <quoted text> Further, The DNA taken from Sloan's car has not as yet lead to any known associate published, and which may very well lead back to the world of Chris Busch, the Fox Island group, or the Cass Coridor group; each of which were pedophile probable pals of Busch and associates. Reasoning~Wrote~ If this was some type of frame work on Busch, it probably will. Take a clump of hairs and fuzz from Busch’s car or anyone else and you would probably find all kinds of hairs trailing back to them. You think Sloan and Busch actually worked together?
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 15, 2013 9:32:20 GMT -5
1 min ago
I sure would like to hear a tape recording of any of these claims attributed to Busch said-However there are none-like this claim ( TruthDude wrote: <quoted text> (" Busch himself claimed he sought out children in the very areas where those children were taken. Too many coincidences here to be discounted for any reasonable person.")--***(-Now isn't this strange? I think those addresses must be rubber stamp-as the very description of these areas-were in Lawson's court papers and then again in Teds court papers and at this time-you heard Kim Worthy tell the world-Ted was the Oakland County Child Killer!! Not one mention of Busch in either court papers -Hmmmm-See this is the problem-recycling old info has to come with some amount of research-but in this case it doesn't-You all remember the Mark Stebbins suit were Att. Berkley,described the brutal death of Mark at the hands of Ted,that was all taken from prior police reports-but Mark wasn't mention in the original reports nor was Ted-It is all like a big Rubik Cube,you keep twisting that sucker until you get a match -)
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 16, 2013 15:58:10 GMT -5
DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!!**~Judi Coltman's Latest book,No Such Thing,is a work of fiction.The city in which the story takes place is real,but the house,the characters and the events as written,are strictly the author's creation and should not be mistaken for fact. It is dedicated to her friends,the Barry King family of Birmingham Michigan,and as you will read in the Afterword,Judi was inspired by a tragedy of her youth-a very public nightmare that occurred in Oakland County Michigan in 1976-77,When four children were murder in a 13 mo timeline by the "Occk"- Oakland County Child Killer-nick name "The Babysitter"-36 yrs later in 2013 the cases all remain unsolved. Having researched these cases for 21 yrs,I was very anxious to read Judi book. I can tell you I was not disappointed,the book has 271 pages,and you will want to read this mystery thriller in one setting -as you will not be able to put it down! *No Such Thing* by Judi Coltman Author Newly divorced and ready to relaunch herself, Sydney Powell and her retired K9 move back to the city in which she grew up to write a book about the infamous underworld faction known as The Purple Gang. Having once lived in a house built and used by the Purple Gang to run liquor, Sydney takes the opportunity to rent the place, believing it will help her write the book.
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 2:23:48 GMT -5
Helen, When John failed his last polygraph out in GA,then what happen? Mike NOTE: I haven't a clue,as far as I know Michigan Law Enforcement doesn't do any follow up. It is like when they get Tips-just toss them in a basket and hope they go away-
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 2:56:15 GMT -5
I know I am way behind on the Occk Feedback-However I am so busy with so many things directly connected to these cases,that I just can not keep up----as you can see,I am running a lot of the older posts,....and finding anything on this site is going to be pretty confusing-so for the latest posts just go to the bottom of each thread-Thanks
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 3:23:11 GMT -5
For years I use to tell Cathy as a joke,Just because you are Paranoid,does not mean-- their Not out to get you!-Now I have to change that-(They are out to get us.)..~You know things are heating up in the Oakland County Child Murder cases,when we have to warn each other to be careful,also when your own email site flashes-FORBIDDEN-because someone else is on it,reading your emails-also when you are on the phone and you hear some one pick up...but you have no extension phone in your house and then there is all that static,when your talking to others who are also related to the Occk cases-So you really have to step back and wonder if you should continue reporting on these cases...Rick and I talked about this for a long time last night,after talking to several other people who are connected to the Occk cases...and I do not know what the others plan to do. However as you all know Rick and I are terminally Ill...so thinking someone mite try to kill us,if we don't stop posting...doesn't mean a lot to us... What is so strange is -That Cathy believes there is a cover up ...I looked for 21 years and couldn't find any...However now,I'm asking myself -What did I miss...and why??
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 4:38:09 GMT -5
Helen,Do you think Chris Busch is the Oakland County Child Killer,or that maybe he just killed Mark Stebbins? Scott Note-No Chris was just a pervert and he didn't kill Mark,he had just flew to the airport and mom and Dad picked him up,then he went to bed...and at 250 pounds,I don't think after a long flight from Europe he would have the energy to sneak out the window,after Mom and Dad went to sleep,stay up all morning and go out hunting for a kid to molest and kill,then go back home sneak back in,so he could walk down stairs for supper like nothing happen...and where would he of stashed Mark for 4 days? Before dropping him off..he sure didn't sneak him up to his bed room and just tell him to be quite...
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 4:46:04 GMT -5
Helen, One of the re posts you posted tonight sounded like the person who wrote it, thinks John has been cleared.Has he? Tom Note: John will never be cleared. But I know what you mean.there are always going to be story's out there,even Mr. King repeated that John was cleared,so obviously someone in Law Enforcement told him that...and I have a pretty good Idea who, But I just let that go over my head,because I know better,I didn't spend 21 years on these cases,researching John without knowing the facts ...
Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 17, 2013 14:28:47 GMT -5
Well Mr. King did tell me personally on the side at his presentation that John was cleared and he was firm about it. That was the end of the discussion as we were interrupted and I walked away. I must wonder though which cop cleared John for Mr. King? Was it the one that told me the disussions never took place in the first place so there was no way I heard them. Or was it the cop that told me that he personally interviewed the Big Boy staff and confirmed the discussions did take place. I can confirm that neither of these cops are telling the truth. And this could very well had been their response to many inquiries in the past. When it comes to the OCCK investigation of Chris or John, I don't believe anything they tell anyone! Such a conflict of inaccuracies that boggles the mind. Which one is heads and which one is tails and which one should I put more faith in. Same goes with the documents. Which one is accurate? As far as a search warrant of course they going to word it where is would pass. Does the original Busch arrest papers ever reveal exact locations? Reasoning