Post by Helen Dagner on Apr 25, 2011 19:02:56 GMT -5
Reasoning was right about 'Swarthy'
Helen I was reading some old posts on Topix and I laughed so hard I have to share this with you. It dealt with an exchange of posts between Lilly and Reasoning. I see Reasoning hasn't posted there since then and I can see why. Have you been in contact with Reasoning lately? If so, be sure to tell this person they were CORRECT. The following are the posts about this and then I will explain the humor at the bottom;
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CandyO
#5353
Jan 8, 2011
Again, I don't have enough info currently at hand to give dates but the sketch on the left - from what I recall back in the day, was release MONTHS after Tim was abducted and murdered. That alone is suspect to me. In fact, the witness who saw Tim talking to a man standing by a blue Gremlin used the term "swarthy" - and I'm not seeing that at all in the left sketch. She also said the man was dressed nicely, which doesn't really go with the scruffy appearance of the left picture.
Can anyone find the date of the left photo release?
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5354
Jan 8, 2011
CandyO wrote:
In fact, the witness who saw Tim talking to a man standing by a blue Gremlin used the term "swarthy"
Base on newspapers or your own personal contacts? Swarthy in the sense of dark complexion? Who uses a word like 'Swarthy' anyway? LOL
CandyO
Champaign, IL
#5355
Jan 8, 2011
That was the word the witness used. I have no idea what she meant by that because she is the one who helped create the first sketch so that must be considered swarthy to her.
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5356
Jan 8, 2011
Well perhaps it means dark complexion as the 1st sketch does give the impression to me anyway of dark skin with the extra shading. Perhaps it was just someone well tan and it being March time period when Tim's abduction took place that anyone that was tan would kind of stick out of memory at that time as a feature. I won't dare say who that 1st sketch looks like but we both know and leave it at that. The second sketch looks like the Hollywood son that inspector71 brought up which would be a brother.
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5358
Jan 8, 2011
Perhaps someone that spent sometime in the 1977 winter in Florida or Georgia before returning to Michigan? That would make them look 'Swarthy'. LOL
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5359
Jan 8, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
<quoted text>
Base on newspapers or your own personal contacts? Swarthy in the sense of dark complexion? Who uses a word like 'Swarthy' anyway? LOL
Examples of SWARTHY
<a dark-eyed, swarthy young man with killer looks>
Birmingham was and is an upper middle class community. Chances are the people living there were and are fairly educated. If a woman used this term; she most likely did so in its intended context. In those days people still knew how to and usually did speak the King's English. So...she remembered a dark and dangerous looking man. Isn't that what we look for when trying to find a bad man? Do we fit the facts into our own sense of what it is we "should" be looking for? Or do we actually remember exactly what we hear and see?
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5360
Jan 8, 2011
Lilly wrote:
<quoted text>
The middle sketch intrigues me the most. In fact it is the one which sent me to the task force. Looked just like a man I knew. The one with the deformity that sent them running out there. He wasn't the killer. I know that now. But he sure looked like the middle sketch.
So what you thought might have been a connection, is not?
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5363
Jan 9, 2011
Lilly wrote:
<quoted text>
Examples of SWARTHY
<a dark-eyed, swarthy young man with killer looks>
Birmingham was and is an upper middle class community. Chances are the people living there were and are fairly educated. If a woman used this term; she most likely did so in its intended context. In those days people still knew how to and usually did speak the King's English. So...she remembered a dark and dangerous looking man. Isn't that what we look for when trying to find a bad man? Do we fit the facts into our own sense of what it is we "should" be looking for? Or do we actually remember exactly what we hear and see?
Lilly;
I really don't understand your point. The most common definition of 'Swarthy' is dark skin and in some other instances dark hair, dark eyes. The very definition you give implies 'dark eyes' right in sentence and it just so happens to be 'killer' in the sentence also. Educated or not the most common definition is probably what was meant. Due to the sketch having extensive shading on it seems to give the clue of someone that had dark skin or well tan. It would sure be nice to see the detailed police reports that these sketches were evolved about. There could be some details that may help identify something or a clue.
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5364
Jan 9, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
<quoted text>
Lilly;
I really don't understand your point. The most common definition of 'Swarthy' is dark skin and in some other instances dark hair, dark eyes. The very definition you give implies 'dark eyes' right in sentence and it just so happens to be 'killer' in the sentence also. Educated or not the most common definition is probably what was meant. Due to the sketch having extensive shading on it seems to give the clue of someone that had dark skin or well tan. It would sure be nice to see the detailed police reports that these sketches were evolved about. There could be some details that may help identify something or a clue.
From the Webster Dictionary
Swarthy - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
swar·thy adj \ˈswȯr-th ē,-thē\
swar·thi·erswar·thi·est
Definition of SWARTHY
: of a dark color, complexion, or cast
— swar·thi·ness noun
See swarthy defined for English-language learners »
Examples of SWARTHY
<a dark-eyed, swarthy young man with killer looks>
Origin of SWARTHY
alteration of obsolete swarty, from swart
First Known Use: 1587
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5365
Jan 9, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
<quoted text>
Lilly;
I really don't understand your point. The most common definition of 'Swarthy' is dark skin and in some other instances dark hair, dark eyes. The very definition you give implies 'dark eyes' right in sentence and it just so happens to be 'killer' in the sentence also. Educated or not the most common definition is probably what was meant. Due to the sketch having extensive shading on it seems to give the clue of someone that had dark skin or well tan. It would sure be nice to see the detailed police reports that these sketches were evolved about. There could be some details that may help identify something or a clue.
It was 1977. This is a term I heard my mother and those of her generation use. It meant: dark, not to be trusted, kind of greasy looking and a little scary. Those were the types of people she and others would look at when using the word. I have never heard it used to describe a sun tanned person. The dark skin yes but with the other context included. "She goes for the swarthy type." is another example. My point: If a woman in 1977 used the term I don't believe she was refering to a healthy looking freshly tanned guy just back from Georgia.
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5366
Jan 9, 2011
Well maybe you're right. I have never heard the word before to tell you honestly. Had the definition not showed 'dark eyes' and simply stated a suspicious character of some sort it would be more clear. This leads to the question of how did the witness give the impression this person was not to be trusted or is it base on the aftermath? It sounded like Tim was well informed to stay away from suspicious people (smarthy) at this point in time unless he knew him. Maybe we will never have the answers.
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5367
Jan 9, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
Well maybe you're right. I have never heard the word before to tell you honestly. Had the definition not showed 'dark eyes' and simply stated a suspicious character of some sort it would be more clear. This leads to the question of how did the witness give the impression this person was not to be trusted or is it base on the aftermath? It sounded like Tim was well informed to stay away from suspicious people (smarthy) at this point in time unless he knew him. Maybe we will never have the answers.
I agree with you on the description point. But we are assuming that the person she described was the person who took Tim. That is the part in question. As for the dark skinned dark eyed part of the description of swarthy; remember that it was a different time and certainly for our parent's generation who coined the term to mean the other unpleasant parts of a character. "Dark" was unfortunately often automatically distrusted.
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Now here is what is funny. The following link clearly states the following;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer
Investigators put together a profile of the killer based on witnesses' descriptions of the man seen talking to Timothy King the night he disappeared—a white male with a dark complexion, 25 to 35 years old with shaggy hair and sideburns.
I'm sure there are other sources that describe a dark complexion also.
This sure sounds to me like the witness saw the same suspect that Candy's witness describes as swarthy. The sketch shows it, the description shows it by the witness that saw him with Tim, the person that Candy describes as Swarthy describes it and the dictionary explains it. But still this Lilly insist that it means something else. She would go on to write a book with the OCCK completely solved with all the answers. I really don't think I'll waste my time reading it if she thinks John McKinney was the killer. What a laugh. You would think she would start with the basics of what is established as facts on this case! Sgt.
Helen I was reading some old posts on Topix and I laughed so hard I have to share this with you. It dealt with an exchange of posts between Lilly and Reasoning. I see Reasoning hasn't posted there since then and I can see why. Have you been in contact with Reasoning lately? If so, be sure to tell this person they were CORRECT. The following are the posts about this and then I will explain the humor at the bottom;
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CandyO
#5353
Jan 8, 2011
Again, I don't have enough info currently at hand to give dates but the sketch on the left - from what I recall back in the day, was release MONTHS after Tim was abducted and murdered. That alone is suspect to me. In fact, the witness who saw Tim talking to a man standing by a blue Gremlin used the term "swarthy" - and I'm not seeing that at all in the left sketch. She also said the man was dressed nicely, which doesn't really go with the scruffy appearance of the left picture.
Can anyone find the date of the left photo release?
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5354
Jan 8, 2011
CandyO wrote:
In fact, the witness who saw Tim talking to a man standing by a blue Gremlin used the term "swarthy"
Base on newspapers or your own personal contacts? Swarthy in the sense of dark complexion? Who uses a word like 'Swarthy' anyway? LOL
CandyO
Champaign, IL
#5355
Jan 8, 2011
That was the word the witness used. I have no idea what she meant by that because she is the one who helped create the first sketch so that must be considered swarthy to her.
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5356
Jan 8, 2011
Well perhaps it means dark complexion as the 1st sketch does give the impression to me anyway of dark skin with the extra shading. Perhaps it was just someone well tan and it being March time period when Tim's abduction took place that anyone that was tan would kind of stick out of memory at that time as a feature. I won't dare say who that 1st sketch looks like but we both know and leave it at that. The second sketch looks like the Hollywood son that inspector71 brought up which would be a brother.
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5358
Jan 8, 2011
Perhaps someone that spent sometime in the 1977 winter in Florida or Georgia before returning to Michigan? That would make them look 'Swarthy'. LOL
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5359
Jan 8, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
<quoted text>
Base on newspapers or your own personal contacts? Swarthy in the sense of dark complexion? Who uses a word like 'Swarthy' anyway? LOL
Examples of SWARTHY
<a dark-eyed, swarthy young man with killer looks>
Birmingham was and is an upper middle class community. Chances are the people living there were and are fairly educated. If a woman used this term; she most likely did so in its intended context. In those days people still knew how to and usually did speak the King's English. So...she remembered a dark and dangerous looking man. Isn't that what we look for when trying to find a bad man? Do we fit the facts into our own sense of what it is we "should" be looking for? Or do we actually remember exactly what we hear and see?
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5360
Jan 8, 2011
Lilly wrote:
<quoted text>
The middle sketch intrigues me the most. In fact it is the one which sent me to the task force. Looked just like a man I knew. The one with the deformity that sent them running out there. He wasn't the killer. I know that now. But he sure looked like the middle sketch.
So what you thought might have been a connection, is not?
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5363
Jan 9, 2011
Lilly wrote:
<quoted text>
Examples of SWARTHY
<a dark-eyed, swarthy young man with killer looks>
Birmingham was and is an upper middle class community. Chances are the people living there were and are fairly educated. If a woman used this term; she most likely did so in its intended context. In those days people still knew how to and usually did speak the King's English. So...she remembered a dark and dangerous looking man. Isn't that what we look for when trying to find a bad man? Do we fit the facts into our own sense of what it is we "should" be looking for? Or do we actually remember exactly what we hear and see?
Lilly;
I really don't understand your point. The most common definition of 'Swarthy' is dark skin and in some other instances dark hair, dark eyes. The very definition you give implies 'dark eyes' right in sentence and it just so happens to be 'killer' in the sentence also. Educated or not the most common definition is probably what was meant. Due to the sketch having extensive shading on it seems to give the clue of someone that had dark skin or well tan. It would sure be nice to see the detailed police reports that these sketches were evolved about. There could be some details that may help identify something or a clue.
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5364
Jan 9, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
<quoted text>
Lilly;
I really don't understand your point. The most common definition of 'Swarthy' is dark skin and in some other instances dark hair, dark eyes. The very definition you give implies 'dark eyes' right in sentence and it just so happens to be 'killer' in the sentence also. Educated or not the most common definition is probably what was meant. Due to the sketch having extensive shading on it seems to give the clue of someone that had dark skin or well tan. It would sure be nice to see the detailed police reports that these sketches were evolved about. There could be some details that may help identify something or a clue.
From the Webster Dictionary
Swarthy - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
swar·thy adj \ˈswȯr-th ē,-thē\
swar·thi·erswar·thi·est
Definition of SWARTHY
: of a dark color, complexion, or cast
— swar·thi·ness noun
See swarthy defined for English-language learners »
Examples of SWARTHY
<a dark-eyed, swarthy young man with killer looks>
Origin of SWARTHY
alteration of obsolete swarty, from swart
First Known Use: 1587
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5365
Jan 9, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
<quoted text>
Lilly;
I really don't understand your point. The most common definition of 'Swarthy' is dark skin and in some other instances dark hair, dark eyes. The very definition you give implies 'dark eyes' right in sentence and it just so happens to be 'killer' in the sentence also. Educated or not the most common definition is probably what was meant. Due to the sketch having extensive shading on it seems to give the clue of someone that had dark skin or well tan. It would sure be nice to see the detailed police reports that these sketches were evolved about. There could be some details that may help identify something or a clue.
It was 1977. This is a term I heard my mother and those of her generation use. It meant: dark, not to be trusted, kind of greasy looking and a little scary. Those were the types of people she and others would look at when using the word. I have never heard it used to describe a sun tanned person. The dark skin yes but with the other context included. "She goes for the swarthy type." is another example. My point: If a woman in 1977 used the term I don't believe she was refering to a healthy looking freshly tanned guy just back from Georgia.
Reasoning
Sterling Heights, MI
#5366
Jan 9, 2011
Well maybe you're right. I have never heard the word before to tell you honestly. Had the definition not showed 'dark eyes' and simply stated a suspicious character of some sort it would be more clear. This leads to the question of how did the witness give the impression this person was not to be trusted or is it base on the aftermath? It sounded like Tim was well informed to stay away from suspicious people (smarthy) at this point in time unless he knew him. Maybe we will never have the answers.
Lilly
Denver, CO
#5367
Jan 9, 2011
Reasoning wrote:
Well maybe you're right. I have never heard the word before to tell you honestly. Had the definition not showed 'dark eyes' and simply stated a suspicious character of some sort it would be more clear. This leads to the question of how did the witness give the impression this person was not to be trusted or is it base on the aftermath? It sounded like Tim was well informed to stay away from suspicious people (smarthy) at this point in time unless he knew him. Maybe we will never have the answers.
I agree with you on the description point. But we are assuming that the person she described was the person who took Tim. That is the part in question. As for the dark skinned dark eyed part of the description of swarthy; remember that it was a different time and certainly for our parent's generation who coined the term to mean the other unpleasant parts of a character. "Dark" was unfortunately often automatically distrusted.
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Now here is what is funny. The following link clearly states the following;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer
Investigators put together a profile of the killer based on witnesses' descriptions of the man seen talking to Timothy King the night he disappeared—a white male with a dark complexion, 25 to 35 years old with shaggy hair and sideburns.
I'm sure there are other sources that describe a dark complexion also.
This sure sounds to me like the witness saw the same suspect that Candy's witness describes as swarthy. The sketch shows it, the description shows it by the witness that saw him with Tim, the person that Candy describes as Swarthy describes it and the dictionary explains it. But still this Lilly insist that it means something else. She would go on to write a book with the OCCK completely solved with all the answers. I really don't think I'll waste my time reading it if she thinks John McKinney was the killer. What a laugh. You would think she would start with the basics of what is established as facts on this case! Sgt.