polygraph him (asap, but no date mentioned

[Helen Dagner]

[Helen Dagner]

Hey Helen I wonder if John's old artwork looks at all like the one he left at Busch's suicide/murder?
Who was it that saw three demented horror type drawings at his residence? Wasn't there a space
between them where a forth one may go? I thought you posted about this a year or two before
Busch ever made the news?

Note-Yes I did post about it...I'm not going to try to find the post-as I'm busy...But a lady who wanted to purchase the house-could never get to see that bed room..so finally she told John's Mother she either got to see the bed room...or she was not interested-John's mother said,her son John kept it locked and he would be very angry if she open it...and added that she was really affraid of him...but in a few days mom called the woman and said ,she could show the bed room,well the only things in it-were and old matress,no sheets on it and three drawings that looked really evil and a fourth empty spot where another drawing had been....

[Helen Dagner]

This Paragraph-from Cathy

"My dad left a message yesterday that Gray called him (yesterday morning) and told him they "interviewed a guy in Atlanta," that this guy may not have much more to offer but they have arranged to polygraph him (asap, but no date mentioned), and that they would take it from there".


-My take on thingsHere's what I got from Cory when he called me - (this includes my spin on what he told me):


1. John drives some old limo for a living in Atlanta and has for quite some time. He couldn't explain why a guy with an education moved from family and friends in 1992 and ended up in Atlanta, other than "this is as far as my money took me" and "this is just where I ended up."


2. He showed up for the interview with some encyclopedia of serial killers, allegedly to demonstrate that he is simply fascinated by these types of crimes and to bolster his premise that he was only discussing this crime with me because of interest, not involvement. (What a piece of work.)


3. He said I "made up" the map drawing and that he never said what AW overheard that December day in the Big Boy. Cory pointed out that AW had absolutely no reason to lie, even told him there were other witnesses who observed the map drawing, etc. I think this was the point that Cory said John ran out of answers and started doing that trance thing. I just remember that Cory said at one point he did do that weird trance thing. While at other points John never denied saying anything, just said I was making things up, at during the map discussion I think Cory said he said the witnesses were wrong because he never said that stuff or wrote the maps.


4. The interview was 2 hours, conducted primarily by Cory, and became heated at times.


5. They are really glad he agreed to take the polygraph. Cory said it wouldn't surprise him either way--if he passed or failed. He says he thinks John has the biggest likelihood of failing the question of "are you withholding any info on this case?"


6. John said he does not keep in contact with his family--hasn't talked to Tom in ages; rarely talks with Mike. When asked why John didn't end up in Florida like some of the rest of his family, he had no response.


7. John is completely strange and bizarre and often did not make eye contact.


8. John said he never knew any Chris Busch; didn't have a friend who committed suicide or know anyone at that time who killed himself. That I was smart enough to do the research on Busch's date of death and that the fact that it was on the same day as my husband's suicide was just a coincidence. As I pointed out, this is a pretty d**n big coincidence, as is John's proximity to the Busch house, and Cory agreed. He said that's why they need a correctly-administered polygraph.


9. That he and Gray discussed the possibility that John was just feeding you the story to get a rise out of you and to get free meals and coffee. When Gray asked Cory why John didn't just sue you, Cory said "because that s.o.b. in fact said all of that stuff to Helen." At one point in the interview, John tried to say you were crazy and Cory stopped him and said he has spoken to you, you are not crazy and that many of the things you have said have checked out when Cory looked into it. So he said something along the lines of stop saying Helen is crazy, she isn't, and that doesn't answer my questions.


10. John denied ever receiving any mental health treatment, denied every staying at or being treated at the Ardmore Center Hospital (near Tim's drop off).


11. There must have been a lot more if they talked for two hours, but this was what I got out of the brief phone call. If I had to be a realist, what I am guessing is that they need a failed or inconclusive polygraph to justify continuing to investigate him. Cory mentioned nothing about interviewing other family members-beside Mike and Patty and simply said he had to report in to the Wayne County prosecuting attorney because Wayne County picked up the tab for a lot of this trip. I assumed that a further game plan would be discussed at that time, but I know a lot is riding on that polygraph. The only good thing, and I mean only, is that this polygraph will be conducted by someone competent and someone in Georgia with no ties to the MSP.


Gray said the polygraph was imminent and Cory said that near the conclusion of the interview both he and Gray told John they hoped he understood how bad it would look and how much trouble he would create for himself if he didn't show up for this poly. He said he understood. Cory asked him if he was going to pass and John said "I think so." Cory responded: Think or know?! John then said oh yeah, he knew he would pass.


That's all I know. I agree with my daughter that info is being withheld from me, but with the MSP involved it's amazing I got anything at all. I'm sure more will eek out as time goes on. At least I will get some kind of idea what is going on through that--although it will be the totally edited version.


I will let you know what I hear about the actual polygraph.

[Helen Dagner]

Jack,~this is the gal that lived by the drop off ~earlier her & her husband went to the drug store...they took the back roads to get there as the main roads had police road blocks``when they got to that parking lot~they saw a car backed up against a snow bank~~she made complete eye contact...and reconized John~who did not acknoledge her...she didn't think any more about it for a couple of hours after as when they returned home~there were police every where...helecopters over her home shinning lights~every where...the road was blocked but because they lived there~they got thru....When she thought about John~she said you know he has always been weired~maybe he is the Occk...her husband said I don't think so~~Then years later she read my site and emailed me...

[Helen Dagner]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject:

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Helen, I have a few questions and comments on the Oakland Child Murders.

No.1 Why did the mother of John's child want you to meet with him?

No.2 How old was John when the murders took place?

No.3 Did John own a car and a shot gun?

No.4 What was John's occupation at the time and what was his intelligent level?

No.5 Does John have a criminal record and for what?

No.6 You stated one of the victims book "JILL" was inscribed with something.
Was this ever released to the public?
Did John know what it stated?

PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE OF KILLER

The following is a brief psychological profile of the killer.
White male in his middle twenties or middle thirties.
Organized killer.
Average or above average in intelligence.
Owned a vehicle or had transportation.
Vehicle would have high mileage since he would travel a lot looking for his prey.
Vehicle most likely dark in color.
Killer has homosexual tendencies and may have been sexually assaulted as a child.
He liked his victims young between the ages of 9 and 12 pre-puberty or just reaching puberty.
Killer is not a sadistic killer. If information is correct he performed sexual acts (torture) post mortem.
Sadistic killers torture while there victims are still alive
Was not sexually attracted or turned on by the female victims
Killer would most likely keep trophies could be jewelry, articles of clothing "underwear" or pictures of victims.
Killer reads the news papers and keeps up with news coverage of the murders.
Killer changes MO and cause of death from strangulation to gun shot blast to face to try and confuse authorities.
Organize killers usually don't abduct and kill in there own neighborhood so victims would have been abducted several miles from where killer lived.
Victims bodies would have been dumped 10 to 20 miles from where killer lived.
Killer most likely has some type of criminal record--sexual assault, voyeurism or criminal trespass

COMMENTS

All four children were killed by the same person in my opinion.
Motive for the killings would be consistent with John's explanation.
Three different modes of death,
Strangulation 2 male victims
Suffocation female victim
Gun shot wound to head female victim.

Helen Dagner
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:53 am Post subject: OCCK

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To answer some of your questions---No1-The Mother of Johns Child,wanted me to meet him because she knew first hand that I did Covert Investigations for many Police dept's....and that my very good friend at the time was a Det.Lt....and she always had wondered in the back of her mind...why out of the clear blue sky...did John stand behind her in her kitchen...and say....I was Investigated by the Original Oakland County Child Killer Task Force....I mean like why would he say this...when nothing they were talking about...was even on that topic....also on her on after that,she started to do some investigating...and found some very interesting items...that a man just wouldn't have...and John was doing a few odd things...like when he left her house...he was seen looking in the windows late at night...then the large amount of nylon stockings & pantie hose...that he was saving...was a little bit scary to her....at the time she was thinking---maybe he is a nylon rapist!....No2-John was 28 when the original 4 murders took place....No3-At one time John owned a car...but he also could use other peoples....No4-At the time of the Killings...he was mostly unemployed....No 5-John had NO Criminal record at the time I met him...other than a few bad checks...No 6....No the words in Jills book were never made public...yes John did know what they were......comment on the rest of your post---John was way above average Intelligence...altho the Birmingham Police...told me they didn't think he was as smart -as I made him out to be...There was NO Torture to the victims of the OCCK...and as for John,he did not display any -Homosexual tendenices around me...or give me any hints that he may have them...yes there were items-I considered to be Tropies...yes,he did read Newspapers...and did tell me he followed the cases in the Newspaper...However all the Info he gave me...could not be found in print...any where...John himself is a reader...when I met him...he owned about a Thousand books...that he moved every where that he went...yes he did do things to confuse athorities....I will have more on this at a later date...I have recived about 1700 emails since you posted your questions...so lets see what they say...again thanks for posting...and if you have other questions or comments...just send them along...and I will get to them...one at a time....