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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 12, 2012 12:29:57 GMT -5
CasObs
Rockford, IL
| #7859 3 min ago The area code was 313 in lower Michigan, not 616. Interesting observation about the predatory cats in conjunction with Busch's predatory life. I do have to wonder, though, if the decor is more his mother's decision than his. He went to school in Europe and was not home a lot. His mother could have decided the animal theme. Over all, the room is surprisingly shabby so I'm guessing here. Although, one of the pictures looks to be of the hallway, which has ornate furniture and wallpaper compared to Busch's room which seems shabby. The body is still in the bed. We know it is Busch, why black it out? Agree completely about the lack of blood spatter. Not only would there be blood, the shotgun would have produced a significant blast, not a neat hole between his eyes. Although the picture isn't public, the bullet hole was "clean" (as far as I have been told by a family member who viewed the photo). My questions (with little gun knowledge) are, how does someone shoot themselves cleanly between the eyes with a shotgun? How did he manage to get the shotgun to lay neatly at his side? Lights off? Good point!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 12, 2012 13:55:14 GMT -5
heTruthDude
Los Angeles, CA Reply » | Report Abuse | Judge it! | #7864 34 min ago Questions:
1. How do we know that Busch did not have the artistic talent to have done the Stebbins drawing, OR if true; then perhaps it was as much a bought or traded keepsake as much as the films themselves.
2. Was there other child porn in that room, or was it completely free of same. It seems that if there was one such item in that room, then there should have been more.
3. Is there a mathmatical apex organization where all of the various named suspects met or interacted, or an Apex person they all knew in their professional or social lives.
4. There appears to be various players here from all social strata, and I have wondered if some were the hunters, some the photographers / filmographers, and some the physical molestors; all in their preferred roles.
5. If we assume Busch was a slob, and despite the maid's best efforts the room was not sterile, why is there no greater bloating of the body. I ask this assuming one variable that some measure of heat was on in the home in November, and his room was not as cold as a refridgerator. Reasoning
Macomb, MI #7865 13 min ago
Helen Dagner wrote: <quoted text>John did hatching in his architecture drawings-and this is interesting-when he drew Jills bike and the dumpster at Marks drop off-these were done with what he called an architecture pen-those objects stood right out on the map drawings
Helen were these also drawn at the Big Boy? If John was using a mechincal drawing pen I think it would have caught my eye even if if it was sitting on the table. Perhaps he had it in his pocket when he fishished? When I came in the drawings were already made and you and John had them spread on the table. The Troy map was the only thing that I remember seeing as he was writing something at the top which gave me a chance to see it. The others I never got a chance to see because shortly after that you had them stacked on your side with your big purse covering them. Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI ! | #7866 7 min ago Good one Paterick--I'm geting closer to all Chris Info-I want to get this posted first-Here we go-*This is printed on Department Of State Police Stationary-It is the Laboratory Report-Evidence reportedly placed in Firearms Locker-on 12/22/78 at 10:30 AM-Evidence removed from Locker on 12/26/78 at #:00 AM by Robert H. White-Reference-Suicide-Victim -Christopher Busch-Evidence Recived:-1-.22 L.R. caliber Squires Bingham {K-Mart} Model 20,semiautomatic rifile serial #23-891528-Tag#6040 attached.-1-Pressure sealed plastic bag,containing:-1-Lead bullet.-Marked #1 by Undersigned.------1 Coin envelope containing:-1.22 {L.or LR.-Caliber"F"-fired cartridge case-{Marked #2 by undersigned{F}-----1"prin t} envelope,containing:--!-.22 {L.or LR caliber "F" fired cartridge case-Marked # 3 by undersigned}-1-"Print " evelope,containing:-!-.22 {L.or LR calibber "F" fired cartridge case {Marked #4-by Undersigned}.---1"Print " envolope,containing:-1-,22{L.o r LR} caliber "F" fired cartridge case-{Marked #5 by undersigned--------1-"Pri nt envelope containing-10-,22LR caliber "F" caridge{3 used for test}---RESULTS OF EXAMINATION:--The one {1} metal jacket lead bullet{ Item #1}and the {4}{L or LR} caliber "F" fired cartridge cases --{Item #2 thru 5} are identified as having been fired in the -,22 L.R. caliber Squires Bingham {K-Mart},Model 20,semiautomatic rifle Serial #23-891528. Robert H. White-Laboratory Specialist-1/19/79-Long Gun File-*NOTE-ALL THOSE MIS SPELLED WORDS ARE IN THE REPORT~LOL-However I probably would have spelled them the same way Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI 1 min ago
Reasoning wrote: <quoted text> Helen were these also drawn at the Big Boy? If John was using a mechincal drawing pen I think it would have caught my eye even if if it was sitting on the table. Perhaps he had it in his pocket when he fishished? When I came in the drawings were already made and you and John had them spread on the table. The Troy map was the only thing that I remember seeing as he was writing something at the top which gave me a chance to see it. The others I never got a chance to see because shortly after that you had them stacked on your side with your big purse covering them.
I was actually going to make a post about that pen later-John did put the pen back in his pocket-lol-I think he thought I was going to steal it-and it was really and expensive pen-But I was making such a fuss over it-saying well do you mean if I had a pen like that-then I could draw like this-He said-well maybe with a little practice-I will look up my notes on this-as it was really a strange conversation-the way he was protecting that PEN!--I even asked him was this a trophy or a SOUVENIR ?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 12, 2012 14:26:37 GMT -5
Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI ! | #7866 38 min ago Good one Paterick--I'm geting closer to all Chris Info-I want to get this posted first-Here we go-*This is printed on Department Of State Police Stationary-It is the Laboratory Report-Evidence reportedly placed in Firearms Locker-on 12/22/78 at 10:30 AM-Evidence removed from Locker on 12/26/78 at #:00 AM by Robert H. White-Reference-Suicide-Victim -Christopher Busch-Evidence Recived:-1-.22 L.R. caliber Squires Bingham {K-Mart} Model 20,semiautomatic rifile serial #23-891528-Tag#6040 attached.-1-Pressure sealed plastic bag,containing:-1-Lead bullet.-Marked #1 by Undersigned.------1 Coin envelope containing:-1.22 {L.or LR.-Caliber"F"-fired cartridge case-{Marked #2 by undersigned{F}-----1"prin t} envelope,containing:--!-.22 {L.or LR caliber "F" fired cartridge case-Marked # 3 by undersigned}-1-"Print " evelope,containing:-!-.22 {L.or LR calibber "F" fired cartridge case {Marked #4-by Undersigned}.---1"Print " envolope,containing:-1-,22{L.o r LR} caliber "F" fired cartridge case-{Marked #5 by undersigned--------1-"Pri nt envelope containing-10-,22LR caliber "F" caridge{3 used for test}---RESULTS OF EXAMINATION:--The one {1} metal jacket lead bullet{ Item #1}and the {4}{L or LR} caliber "F" fired cartridge cases --{Item #2 thru 5} are identified as having been fired in the -,22 L.R. caliber Squires Bingham {K-Mart},Model 20,semiautomatic rifle Serial #23-891528. Robert H. White-Laboratory Specialist-1/19/79-Long Gun File-*NOTE-ALL THOSE MIS SPELLED WORDS ARE IN THE REPORT~LOL-However I probably would have spelled them the same way Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI | #7867 30 min ago
Reasoning wrote: <quoted text> Helen were these also drawn at the Big Boy? If John was using a mechincal drawing pen I think it would have caught my eye even if if it was sitting on the table. Perhaps he had it in his pocket when he fishished? When I came in the drawings were already made and you and John had them spread on the table. The Troy map was the only thing that I remember seeing as he was writing something at the top which gave me a chance to see it. The others I never got a chance to see because shortly after that you had them stacked on your side with your big purse covering them.
I was actually going to make a post about that pen later-John did put the pen back in his pocket-lol-I think he thought I was going to steal it-and it was really and expensive pen-But I was making such a fuss over it-saying well do you mean if I had a pen like that-then I could draw like this-He said-well maybe with a little practice-I will look up my notes on this-as it was really a strange conversation-the way he was protecting that PEN!--I even asked him was this a trophy or a SOUVENIR ? Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI
| #7868 12 min ago I must be getting close to the-Autopsy as I found this -*D.O.D. 11-20-78 D.O.B. 7-31-1951 white male Location of death: 3310 Morningview Terrace, Township of Bloomfield, Oakland County, MI Place of death: home Parents: Harold Lee Busch and Elsie Niemi Busch Informant: Charles N. Busch, 523 Mohegan, Birmingham, MI Cause of death: gunshot wound of head; death "within seconds" Autopsy: yes Pronounced dead at 9:30 a.m. on 11-20-78 Suicide Date and hour of injury unknown Disposition of body: cremation, Wm. R. Hamilton Co., 820 E. Maple, Birmingham, MI Cemetery: Evergreen Cemetery, Detroit, MI Death certificate filed: 11-22-78 Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI
| #7869 5 min ago
TheTruthDude wrote: Questions: 1. How do we know that Busch did not have the artistic talent to have done the Stebbins drawing, OR if true; then perhaps it was as much a bought or traded keepsake as much as the films themselves. 2. Was there other child porn in that room, or was it completely free of same. It seems that if there was one such item in that room, then there should have been more. 3. Is there a mathmatical apex organization where all of the various named suspects met or interacted, or an Apex person they all knew in their professional or social lives. 4. There appears to be various players here from all social strata, and I have wondered if some were the hunters, some the photographers / filmographers, and some the physical molestors; all in their preferred roles. 5. If we assume Busch was a slob, and despite the maid's best efforts the room was not sterile, why is there no greater bloating of the body. I ask this assuming one variable that some measure of heat was on in the home in November, and his room was not as cold as a refridgerator.
I know he didn't have the talent because the brother was asked and said he was a Doodler and not to much more-No other Child Porn-Yes for them to state that he had been dead for days-there would have been bloating-but-I'm wondering about this-as the boy next door-left an arrived in AZ on the 23rd I think- Helen Dagner
Petoskey, MI 2 min ago I just have my info on Busch-filed under Busch-No titles-so I'm having to re read everything -and it is a big job-I don't like doing it--But I must-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 12, 2012 14:49:37 GMT -5
hi again.....Helen, my head's just spinning after reading all of that. I don't even know what to say. This is an incredible find, that's for sure. How could this ring still be seemingly kept quiet all those years in relation to the OCCK? We can see the news articles now, but I don't remember ever hearing something this big tied to the occk. How could the Busch's have not been investigated further back then. Once Chris died, did they just drop the whole thing?? Thanks for sharing all this stuff. I'm really stunned. I really hope this finally leads to the answers. Kim
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 12, 2012 15:05:11 GMT -5
reviewed the 1978 “suicide” report from Christopher Busch's death.
Several things do not make sense to me, so I thought I would outline them for you, and you could draw your own conclusions.
Time Line Of Events:
On 11-20-1978 at approximately 8:37 a.m. Charles Busch called the Bloomfield Township Police and requested they check on the welfare of his brother Christopher Busch. A Bloomfield Township Police Officer was dispatched via radio and arrived at the Busch home two minutes later.
The Officer met with a maid (Christeen) who had been cleaning for the Busch family every Monday. The maid advised that she could not get into the home, she grew concerned seeing that the news papers were still at the door and the door was latched from the inside. The maid told police she felt something was wrong with Mr. Busch (Chris), so she went to the neighbor's knowing they also had a key to the house. The neighbor called Chris's brother Charles. Charles then called the police. The police arrived at 8:39 a.m., Charles arrived at the residence at 9:00 a.m. Charles attempted to gain entry into his parent's home, his efforts failed. The police officer then force entry into the home.
The officer on scene then allowed Charles Busch to enter the home with him, after all this was “just a welfare check”. The report reads that the officer and Charles then went right up stairs and found Chris Busch in his bed, dead, a 22 cal rifle by his side. The officer writes that he was “obviously dead + for some time (3 or 4 days). The report reads that Chris was laying in the bed face up. Victim had an apparent gunshot wound to the head. A rifle was found next to the victim, pointing at his head. The report did not indicate where on the head the bullet wound was, no did it indicate the position of Chris's hands or arms. The report did not indicate if Chris was dress, in his PJ's or in the buff. Additional officers were then summoned to the residence.
The police report indicates that a check of the home inside and out found that all the doors and windows had been locked from the inside, except the door from the garage, it was standing open. But the outside overhead doors were closed.
As I reviewed this report, I had several questions. I could see the maid being some what concerned, the home was locked. This was 1978, WHO LOCKED THEIR DOOR!! Especially in the affluent neighbor hood where the Busch's lived in Bloomfield Township. The maid later told the police that she and Chris were “good friends”, they kidded each other about things. The maid said that she last saw Chris on 11-13-78 and he was “very happy”. The maid DID NOT SAY that Chris was down, moody, or “dispondant” when she last saw him.
The maid went to a neighbor's house who also had a key to the home. The neighbor did not go to the house with the key, or try to assist the maid in gaining entry into the home, he instead called Chris's brother Charles. Charles Busch then immediately called the police. According the the police report, Charles had not seen his brother for three weeks, yet Charle's wife Nancy spoke with Chris only four days prior and they discussed Thanksgiving plans. According the police report, Nancy stated there was no indications that Chris was “despondent” at that time.
Chris Busch was 27 years old at the time of his death, he often traveled. Why was Charles so immediately concerned. Has no one ever locked all their doors and exited out the garage? Has no one ever forgotten to stop the news paper, or forgotten to pick papers off the step for a day or two?
The police spoke with a personal friend of the family. He stated he talked with Chris a earlier in the week and his wife talked to Chris on 11-16-78. Neither noted any concern for Chris's well being, “he seemed fine at the time”.
The report states “Task Force was notified at 10:45 a.m. John Davis and Ron Pierce came to the scene. Is that the Bloomfield Township Suicide Prevention Task Force or the OCCK Task Force? Does the Task Force get notified after every suicide? And if it was the OCCK Task force why did they not use the suspected suicide to get a search warrant and tear the house apart. If Chris Busch was ever a viable suspect in the OCCK case, his death just handed the police the golden ticket to put a microscope on his life and in his house.
The report notes that Friday-Monday's paper's were found on the porch. Charles Busch brought in the mail, not date stamp information was given on the mail. The Thursday Edition of the Newspaper was found in the living room, opened up to the movie guide. (Sounds pretty dispondant to me!!! )
The police spoke with Chris's former employer. Chris quit a job in order to pursue a new job. (Sounds really dispondant and lost to me).
The police talked to Chris's dad, Lee. And according the the report I have reviewed, only verified that Chris was going to start his new job on 11-20-78. They did not ask or document any information as to how Chris was doing emotionally, financially, or how long they had been in England.
The icing on the cake. The police spoke with the Probation Officer from Oakland County. The probation officer told the police that Chris may have been dispondant over the four cases against him and may have committed suicide because of it. OH MY GOD!!! The probation officer did not say that he saw Chris, not did he have any first hand information that Chris was “dispondant”.
Their was the co-worker who said that Chris showed her some scars on his wrists and talked about how he tried to attempt suicide two years ago. The co worker stated that Chris seemed to be joking about the who thing and did not at any time indicate that he might attempt suicide again. The co-worker was quite surprised when she heard of his death.
Did the police every check out this “attempted suicide”. Did they ask Chris's parents about it. Did they ask his brother. Did the autopsy note scars on the wrist? No, they did not. They CLOSED their case saying that “all evidence and information gathered in this case indicate that Christopher Busch committed suicide.
Did they wait for the Lab Reports that state “Levels of antimony found in items #2 through #5 (swabs) were insufficient to indicate the presence of gunshot residue; therefore, no testing for barium was conducted”. From these findings no conclusion can be made as to whether the subject did or did not handle or discharge a firearm.”
A second lab report talks about several 22 caliber fired cartridge casings. (Was there more than one bullet or shell casing recovered at the Busch home on the date in question?) The police report doesn't indicate how many items were taken in to evidence. The gun in question a 22 LR caliber Squires Bingham (Kmart) Model 20, semiautomatic rifle. There is no indication in the police report who this gun belonged to.
The one page Autopsy Protocol, General Information Sheet, indicates cause of death as being a “gun shot wound of head.” It doesn't indicate where the bullet entered Chris's head or where or if it exited. The report is in error, as it puts the date of death as 11-20-1978 and the time as 9:30 a.m. Even the police officers could tell that the body of Christopher Busch had been in the bed “a few days”. And what about the news papers stacking up at the door. Even the toxicology report indicates that the “speciman was decomposed” The toxicology report also states that Chris had a blood alcohol of 0.41% (that is four times the legal limit.) No other drugs where detected. So then the report might also be wrong when it says the Manner of Death was “SUICIDE”.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 13, 2012 3:41:15 GMT -5
Lilly and I had a 100 min. talk tonight-that's why I didn't get the Feedback up--She is a very nice person-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 14, 2012 0:10:26 GMT -5
This is a re-post-I am putting it here-as it match info in a FOIA paper-that I will be posting at another time-with some suspect Info -given in a police Interview-Omori Omori is offline Registered User Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18 I've been following this case for some years and I frequently travel Greenfield Road and I notice how easily it gives access to the victims. If you start at Big Beaver Road (aka 16 Mile Road) which is near where Jill Robinson's body was recovered, you can reach Woodward which passes near or through Bloomfield Twp. You take Woodward, which slants towards the southeast, all the way to 14 Mile. At that point, you're near where I read somewhere that Jill Robinson vanished. You turn right onto 14 Mile and go a very short distance--no more than a quarter mile and there's Greenfield on the left. You can't go right because there's just houses there. But if you go over those houses westward as the crow flies one mile up to West Maple Road (aka 15 Mile) you end up right at Maple and Woodward--precisely the spot where Tim King vanished.
Now head east on Greenfield. When you hit 12 Mile, you turn left on it and you can see the 7-11 where Kristine Mihelich vanished. It's visible from Greenfield or nearly so--very close to it. Across the street from the 7-11 is Hartfield Lanes bowling alley where Ms. Dagner's "John" claimed he actually picked up Kristine.
Now continue east on Greenfield past 12 Mile and when you get to 10 Mile, you are at the dump site of Mark Stebbins's body. Continue east on Greenfield to 9 Mile. If you make a left on 9 Mile, you pass first through Oak Park and then Ferndale where Stebbins disappeared. In fact, 9 Mile passes right through the heart of Ferndale. I always thought that area resembles Japan the way the street is so narrow and the shops and businesses are so close to the street. The next street you hit is Woodward again.
It seems to me that the killer spent his time cruising that route--Woodward to 14 Mile to Greenfield to 9 Mile to Woodward and then up to 15 Mile. I believe you have to turn at that point and can go left or right. There is a pharmacy there, I don't know if it's the one Tim King was at. I pulled around behind it and there is a big ol' parking lot there and so I drove around in it.
It seems to me, odd that the killer could have met these victims by happenstance. When I was in that parking lot, it hit me that there's no way a predator would just sit there waiting for some kid. He must have followed Tim there and waited for him to exit. How did he know Tim would come out the back? Not sure but Tim had his skateboard so maybe the killer figured the boy would likely want to have an expanse to skate on.
That means, the killer apparently followed each victim and got them when they were isolated. So he would have decided to go after one at a time until he got them all. That's still problematic in the taking of Jill Robinson since she was on her bike. Since it seems unlikely that he pulled her off her bike and got her in his car on a street as busy as Woodward--a major southeast Michigan thoroughfare--he somehow coaxed her to ditch the bike and come along with him willingly but how did he do that? What kid would just leave his or her bike where someone is sure to steal it unless she chained it to something immovable. I know they found the bike behind a hobby store in Royal Oak along Main Street--where I hang out a lot doing open mics and busking on street corners when it's warm. I don't know in what state the bike was in when found.
But Greenfield Road and Woodward seemed to the be the killer's main stalking ground. He used them to get himself east and west and could do so in a big hurry because the traffic really moves along both routes. I have driven both of them hundreds of times. (NOTE ADD CORRECTION-However, you would be heading south on Greenfield, not east. I currently work 1/2 mile off of Greenfield and 9 mile. .(its a north/south street that ends at 14 mile)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 14, 2012 0:39:41 GMT -5
Helen,Tim King played hockey at Eton Park in Birmingham. McKinney's art studion was inbetween Eton Park and the drugstore / Tim's neighborhood. It would be interesting to see if anyone in the Robinson and Mihalich familes recalls artistic interests (eg. classes) with / McKinney in some way. Del
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Post by Casual Observer on Jan 14, 2012 9:17:00 GMT -5
I'm not clear on what the location of Eton Park, McKinney's studio, the drug store and Tim's house have to do with one another. Eton Park rink was quite a distance (driving) from Tim's house.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 14, 2012 10:30:24 GMT -5
My answer to this is that Tim played hockey at Eton. It's not THAT far away for a young kid to walk or ride his bike from there. Don't forget, Tim was abducted in March. I'd like to know who the "rink rats" were at the time at Eton Park. It may be worthwhile if the King family could recall any of Tim's hockey teammates and contact them to see if they could recall John H or any other people who may have hung around the rink. Del
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Post by Justice Denied on Jan 14, 2012 12:41:40 GMT -5
We used to walk or take bikes from 15 mile to Eton Park quite often for little league games, or to swim at Forest Hills. Less than a mile.
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Post by Casual Observer on Jan 14, 2012 15:45:43 GMT -5
I disagree. Eton Park (which is a stones throw from Forest Hills) was still a long walk or ride for Tim. It would have meant crossing Maple and a set of RR tracks. He wasn't left alone much at that age, I doubt he would have been allowed to ride his bike to the skating rink. And, we were just coming off of a bad winter, I doubt he rode his bike anywhere. That being said, I still don't understand what you are trying to say about the McKinney art studio, HM, Eton and Tim. Could you please explain?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 14, 2012 17:53:50 GMT -5
Thanks. I wish the Kings could go back and try to get some of his little league teammates and ask if they recall Hastings, McKinney , etc. hanging around the hockey or baseball teams or being asst coaches. Del
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Post by Casual Observer on Jan 14, 2012 18:20:17 GMT -5
I knew one of the "Rink Rats" back in the day. He was an employee there and a senior in HS that year. He was interviewed by the police as were all of the staff. HOPEFULLY they provided names of regulars.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 16, 2012 14:44:35 GMT -5
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