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Post by Helen Dagner on May 17, 2013 1:08:47 GMT -5
First things first. The odds of anyone getting away with murder are GREATLY reduced any time more than one person is involved. People just naturally seem to like to run their mouths. They brag to friends, unburden their souls, death bed confessions, get drunk and flap their jibbs and etc.... Further increasing the odds against it being more than one perp would be the nature of pedophiles, which is that they keep on offending, which means they are increasingly likely to get caught for another, different crime, and spill their guts to get some kind of deal. Also, assuming these multiple sickos were pedophiles, why in hell would they take the enormous risk of placing the bodies in highly visible, populated locations? Hell, wasn't one of the kids dropped off close to a police station? Who ever heard of a ring of pedophiles taking all of those chances so they could taunt the cops? All of the pedophiles I've ever heard of didn't want the cops to know they even existed. No, if these kids were taken by a ring of perverts, neither the children nor their bodies would have ever been seen again. Furthermore, pedophilia as a motive becomes even more unlikely because the entire community was on hyper alert when Kris and Tim were abducted. If molestation were the motive, why wouldn't the perverts just go somewhere else (that wasn't on guard) and grab some kids there, as it wouldn't have been so risky for them? So, it looks like these crimes were committed by one person, who was not motivated by sex. What then, does the evidence say about motive? It seems that it was nothing personal against the kids as they didn't appear to suffered physical mistreatment while they were alive, nor were they "posed" in any kind of degrading fashion. If we take away as a motive sex, revenge, kidnap for ransom, murder for inheritance and etc., looks like our killer was trying to make some kind of statement to society.Since there was no "Political Manifesto" or anything else left with the children, the killer's message to Society must have been very personal to the killer and may have made sense to him alone. The twisted, distorted emotional thinking involved was as unique to this killer as was his own warped psychological make up. He saw himself as being a failed member of a well to do, respected and accomplished family. College drop out, washing dishes, just dumped by his only girl friend up until that time... He just wasn't measuring up! All of this was taking place on a faulty mental/emotional foundation indeed. You see, his father was distant and emotionally remote, was overly critical and more concerned with appearances than presiding over a nurturing, supportive household. His family was middle class, but the area was upper middle class to out and out rich. He let the kids know that they came from line of illustrious achievers, and were expect to do the family name proud. But wait, there's more! His mom was nuts. Certifiably. Who knows what impact she added to his turmoil during his formative childhood years. I'm sure it was a lot and it wasn't good. So, here we have our suspect, rejected by his father, dumped by his girl, rejected by society (Couldn't even find a decent job) washing dishes. No wonder this creep was mad at the world. He figured it was the whole system of rich snobs and upper class elite types that rigged the social/economic system against poor, smart good guys like him who weren't born with a silver thingy in their mouth. He was sick of getting screwed around by " the man" (Society), and being insignificant. It just wasn't fair! But, how to fight back? That was the question. He had no money, no influence, no army, nothing. When, suddenly it hit him; THEIR CHILDREN. The children were the one vulnerability he could exploit in his effort to strike back at Society for the raw deal he was getting. In his own twisted mind, he may have figured that since life was painful and sucked, he would really be doing the kids a favor by saving them from living a life sure to be full of disappointment, frustration and pain, by killing them. Perhaps our killer was not only smacking down Society, as may be evidenced by the fact that the killer had two boys and two girls as siblings in his own family, as if to say that on a subconscious level, he was symbolically destroying his own family, (With Society as a whole representing his father). So our suspect not only has the only motive that makes sense and fits the evidence, he actually has ancillary reinforcing motives. But wait, there's yet even more!!! As an additional Gigantic Motive and Big Time Pay Off was the fact that our killer was no longer an insignificant cipher in the crowd, Suddenly, HE MATTERED!!! HE was the most important person in the world for a whole lot of people. Like a God who held the power of Life and Death! He stopped killing for two reasons; #1 He had finished making his statement. #2 He almost got caught and since he was not motivated by sex, he had no need to continue.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 20, 2013 2:52:03 GMT -5
After 20 plus yrs of investigating the Oakland County Child Killer,I have once again been shocked by an unexpected turn of event's.My newly uncovered information seems to shed new light on some confusing pieces of the jigsaw puzzel and brings them together in a clearer, more comprehensive picture of what may have actually,taken place.Over the years,a few law enforcement persons have speculated that a woman may have helped with the abduction and/or confinement of the victims--I am now largely convinced that this is indeed true.I believe John acted in concert with at least one other person-a female accomplice-.and possible another male-These new leads are being per-sued through unofficial channels,which may bring about -startling new revelations in this case in particular--and in Serial killings-in general....
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 21, 2013 1:43:21 GMT -5
You know for the past 21 years...I have done a lot of thinking about John and why did he do this?...oh I always accepted his motive...but I always thought he had additional reasons...after several Interviews ..I feel I have learned what they were.../He did poorly in school, had trouble holding down jobs, and often work as unskilled laborers/ I remember hearing on Tv -years ago-an explanation- is the serial killer's upbringing so I asked & I got answers....I wanted to know the things John never told me about his life...and now I see why he never mention them...Oh he had told me he hated his Mother & father...but I have heard people say that about their parents before...but I never dreamed that his life was so horrible...I knew that even families that appear healthy on the outside may be putting on an act. Children can learn the "Jeckyl and Hyde" routine from parents who are outgoing and social with neighbors and co-workers, but who scowl at their kid's inadequacies when they get home.As I listen to people telling me about Johns life I was thinking In this case, the abuse of children by their parents was barbaric, and it seems little wonder that anything but a fledgling serial killer would come from such horrible squalor. ...and I have this gut feeling as I tell you this-His Parents did abuse their children, physically as well as psychologically,and instill in them an almost instinctive reliance upon violence as a first resort to any challenge. Childhood abuse not only spawns violent reactions, No, but also affects the child's health, including brain injuries, malnutrition, and other developmental disorders.I remember when I talked with Johns dad it was Apparent he believed that by being harsh disciplinarians, it would "toughen" the child. Instead, it created a lack of love between parent and child that had disastrous results. {If the child doesn't bond with its primary caretakers, there is no foundation for trusting others later in life.} For John it lead to isolation, where intense violent fantasies became the primary source of gratification---
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 23, 2013 3:45:05 GMT -5
In the FOIA papers from 1991-02 ,when Johns oldest sister was interviewed,she talked of the violence in the home,how her Dad would hit the mother on her head and how everyone in the home -had hit the mother at one time or another-yet a Oakland County Sheriffs Deputy, had the gall to tell a witness,there was nothing to this -that Johns family members were all good up standing members of society? So do you think anyone on the Sheriff Dept Occk Task Force has ever read those Interviews from other Police Dept? Hell No!...
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 27, 2013 2:40:56 GMT -5
Helen, I did read the autopsy report and it is horrific. However, since they did not find sperm, I don't think Busch or his scuzball friends did it. I think the anal abuse was done by someone who had the same thing happen to him, once upon a time. I wonder if Werner Spitz can recall or has his old notes on his findings. IMO, these murders were done by one person A very disturbed; yet smart and calcualting individual. He may have had a little bit of help but these murders were committed "close to the vest". The guys from the Cass Corridor and Flint pedophile fraternity were not smart enough to pull this off or especially, keep it quiet. I just wished that LE would play more hardball with the known living suspects, their families and acquantinces. Its shameful they haven't made an arrest after 36 years. How can a person get away with not only one, not two, not three but FOUR child murders? Shame on LE! Ted
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 30, 2013 6:02:20 GMT -5
Dec 9th, 2004 - 12:07 AM
Here is a partial transcript that I will provide police. Much information is missing. (do not feel like getting sued) I made up a name for the killer. "Gus" Gus's personal characteristics: 1. Was handsome and athletic. Rosy red cheeks made him look boyish. 2. Mentally he was perceived as normal until 1977. 3. Made many comments of having no regard for human life.
Gus's sexual behavior: 1. Gus stated he would not have sex with any woman that had a baby. 2. Was arrested by Troy police near Oakland Mall for public indecency on or about May of 1977. 3. Many witnesses would attest that Gus was sexually confused.
Links to OCCK characteristics. 1. Drove a Blue Gremlin during and only during T.K. abduction. 2. Drove a green 4 door sedan that was spotted at T.K. drop off. 3. Had a place to take the children and hold them. 4. Had a job and a boss that enabled him extended time off work. 5. He fit much of the published profiles of the OCCK. 6. The original reports on the Tim King abductions claimed the suspect was athletically built and had long blonde hair. 7. Had a dog in his car that had hair that matched the description of the dog hair found in a victims mouth. 8. He carried a 12 gauge shotgun in his trunk year round. 9. He matches a police sketch of the suspected killer. 10. Was in service until 1975. Died in October 1977.
Strange and coincidental occurrences. 1. He lied to me about who owned the blue gremlin. Which shows he was hiding something or covering up for someone. 2. Painted his green 4 door sedan white, immediately after the T.K. drop off. A witness said car was a 4 door green or blue but definitely not white. The painter stated that Gus came to him in a panic and wanted his car painted immediately. He stated Gus told him to not bother painting the door jams. He stated that he messed up a few spots but Gus did not want it redone. (so why did he paint the car if he did not care what it looked like). Why would a young guy paint a green car white? The painter said he remembered Gus driving a blue gremlin. 3. Gus worked for a convicted pornographer priest. Gus also had his bosses car painted by same guy. I believe the priest owned the blue gremlin.
4. I stole a Polaroid out of Gus's pocket. It showed a young girl about 13-15 sitting on his mothers' bed at the family cabin. She was naked, spread eagle, she had skinny arms and legs and her face looked gaunt. She had long brown hair and she was old enough to have pubic hair. She had a serine but not scared look on her face. I recognized the bedroom and only one window appeared in the picture. It was covered with plywood.
5. A group of Gus's friends stopped by the cabin to surprise Gus and he would not let them in. He screamed and yelled at the them that they had no right stopping by uninvited. This was out of character for him and these were his close friends. Obviously something was in the house he did not want then to see.
6. Gus abruptly in early 1977 cut off his long hair to a stubble. I remember thinking, boy he is really struggling to find a look that he liked. He seemed to try to change his looks a lot. Beard, no beard. Big side burns, no side burns. What was particularly puzzling was that he had a large flat spot to the back and side of his head. I know that he had a complex about the flat spot that was only evident when his hair was short. He must have been desperate to change his looks to go to such an extreme.
7. Gus went to the cabin alone with his dog and only in the winter months that I know of. He would tell me how the dog used to sleep all the way up North until he hit the Pinconning exit. Strangely even though he owned a mobile home that I sold him he preferred sleeping in his bedroom at his mothers house. (he never transferred the title).
8. Gus was obviously scared in his final days. He acted suspiciously. He told people that someone was after him. He kept loaded weapons always ready. I freaked when I realized he kept a loaded rifle on the kitchen table. I really freaked when I realized the gun was not on safety.
9. Gus made comments to me in casual conversation that he could kill a person just as easy as killing a deer. It made me have visions of a human hanging in the garage up north. I cannot remember the specific conversation but something Gus said to me made me think about someone being affixiated by closing the garage door with the car running. I remember paper taped over the windows in the garage door windows (there were no other windows). It now makes me wonder if it was just simply to give the impression that no one was home or if he maybe used the garage to affixiate someone. Les
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 31, 2013 2:11:19 GMT -5
Man rejected deal involving Oakland County child deaths 3/22/2006, 1:11 p.m. ET The Associated Press DETROIT (AP) — A 60-year-old murder convict who gave police information about four Oakland County child killings in the 1970s rejected a deal that would have allowed him to serve his sentence in the prison of his choice, his lawyer says. The deal would have required Richard Lawson to tell all he knows about four Oakland County child killings in the 1970s, defense lawyer James O'Donnell told the Detroit Free Press. Lawson was found guilty March 7 of first-degree murder and armed robbery in Wayne County Circuit Court in the 1989 death of Exavor Giller, 67. The cab company owner was shot and killed outside his Livonia home. Lawson once worked for the company. On Tuesday, a judge handed down the life with no parole sentence that is automatic for first-degree murder in Michigan. Information that Lawson has given police in the past year and a half has spurred new activity in the investigation of the child killings. His statements have led police to Detroit's Cass Avenue corridor, a neighborhood that was a center for prostitution and pornography at the time of the killings. The deaths of 11-year-old Timothy King, 12-year-old Mark Stebbins, 12-year-old Jill Robinson and 10-year-old Kristine Mihelich horrified the Detroit area. All four were abducted from business areas in suburban Oakland County and found suffocated between February 1976 and March 1977. Two had been raped, and one also was shot in the face with a shotgun. In a jailhouse interview with WJBK-TV in Detroit that aired Tuesday night, Lawson said he believed the owner of a bicycle shop in the Cass corridor, Bobby Moore, may have been the killer. Moore died of natural causes in 1996, said State Police Detective Sgt. Garry Gray, who is leading the investigation. Gray confirmed that police are investigating Moore's possible role based on Lawson's statements. He said there are several other suspects. Lawson told WJBK that he had no involvement in the killings, and Gray said he had passed a lie-detector test to that effect. Gray said he did not know whether or not Lawson had any other information that could help investigators. "I think he's just playing games right now," Gray said. "We're not playing games." Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy said Lawson's refusal of the offer has not stopped the investigation. "I would especially like the families of the victims to know that our first priority is seeing that justice is served," Worthy said in a statement. "We hope there will be a resolution to this case that has haunted Michigan for three decades."
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 3, 2013 4:55:32 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 4, 2013 8:31:53 GMT -5
November 16, 2005 - A monster roamed the streets of Oakland County in the mid-to-late 1970s, stealing children, keeping them hidden away and eventually — after some period of time — killing them. Panic and terror were rules of the day in suburban Detroit. Mothers walked their children to school and picked them up everyday after class during the winter months of 1976 and '77. No child walked home in the dark. Fliers citing a blue Gremlin and/or depicting a non-descript white male with dark hair were posted in hopes of someone identifying the suspect. Rumors flew as those who even looked suspicious were considered a suspect.
No leads ever panned out. After four children were murdered, the killings just stopped. Months, years and now decades have passed. With the 30th anniversary of the killings nearly upon us, an another effort has been made to bring the Oakland County Child Killer to justice.
Earlier this year, the Michigan State Police announced a renewed effort to solve the Oakland County Child Killer case, calling for anyone with information about the murders to come forward.
For nearly 30 years, State Police and Berkley, Birmingham, Ferndale, Franklin, Livonia, Royal Oak, Southfield, and Troy police detectives and Oakland County Sheriff's Department personnel have received a steady stream of tips from the public and have exhausted every lead. After three decades, responsibility for the investigation has been turned over to State Police Detective Sergeant Garry Gray and his partner Detective Sergeant David Robertson. They now lead a small team that's re-evaluating the case. Gray and Robertson spend a little more than half their time working on this case alone, with help from the Oakland County Sheriff's Department.
The first victim was Mark Stebbins, 12, of Ferndale, who was last seen alive in an American Legion Hall on Feb. 13, 1976. His body was found three days later in a parking lot in Southfield. Stebbins was strangled and sexually assaulted, post-mortem, with an object.
Jill Robinson, 12, reportedly ran away from her Royal Oak home on Dec. 22, 1976. Her body was found the day after Christmas 1976, along I-75 in Troy. Robinson was killed by a single shotgun blast to the face. She was fully clothed and still wearing her backpack when she was found.
The third victim, Kristine Mihelich, age 10, was last seen alive Jan. 2, 1977 around 3 p.m. at a 7-Eleven store in Berkley. Her fully-clothed body was found 19 days later in Franklin Village. She had been smothered.
The last victim was 11-year-old Timothy King. He was last seen in a Birmingham parking lot on March 16, 1977, at around 8:30 p.m. His body was found March 22 in a shallow ditch in Livonia. He had been suffocated and sexually assaulted post-mortem.
Then the killings stopped, as if the killer fell off the face of the Earth. Speculation ran wild. Maybe he or she died; they were in prison for another crime; or, maybe, they were just waiting for the right moment to strike again.
Gray, polite yet forthcoming, hesitates to talk about the case.
"It's been played out in the media," he said.
When pressed for information on the case, Gray stood his ground, saying that the investigation has been reopened and all new tips regarding the murders are being checked out.
"I really can't say much because this is a covert operation," Gray said. He confirmed that there are new tips in the case that made national headlines back in 1976 and '77.
Gray did reveal that the latest investigation unit, which is comprise of at least one other State Police investigator and a "handful" of Oakland County Sheriff's Department detectives, is spending a "significant" amount of time reworking the old files, entering new data into computer models, using DNA analysis equipment and following up on new tips.
"We do spend a majority of our time on this case but I do have other cases," Gray said. "This isn't the only case we are working on."
Gray admits that "sometimes we spend more time and sometimes less" on searching for the Oakland County Child Killer.
"We do have some new leads," he said, stopping short of saying there's a specific suspect or any solid evidence that points to a suspect.
The investigation has moved into the State Police Oak Park offices, but Gray would not say how long the task force will continue to hunt down leads or if the case will ever be closed.
The original task force investigating the case was created by the State Police just after the killings began. The children were individually abducted from suburban business areas and held in captivity from three to 19 days before their bodies were discovered miles from their homes. The rash of killings incited fear and paranoia in parents who would rarely allow children outside alone in the months and years following the abductions.
"The Oakland County Child Killer is one of the most notorious and horrific criminals in the state's history," Gray said when he first received the case over six months ago. "What we are doing is not reopening a cold case, but creating a renewed focus for an ongoing investigation which will continue until the truth is discovered."
The announcement of the renewed effort behind the investigation came shortly after the case files were transported from the State Police Second District Headquarters in Northville to the Metro North Post in Oak Park. The files, which contain 99,000 names, are housed in five, five-drawer file cabinets and 15 additional boxes.
"As the files return to Oakland County, the location of these horrific crimes, so must we," Gray said in a press release announcing the renewed investigative effort. "To that end, detectives and forensic investigators will review each piece of evidence and each interview, looking for clues to help solve these crimes and bring closure to the victims' families and the state."
In addition, scientists working in State Police forensic laboratories are meticulously combing over every piece of evidence using state-of-the-art technology that wasn't available in the past.
All the investigators now involved in the case say they believe a break is coming. The believe that the window is closing on a resolution to this case.
"I don't know anything about a window," said Oakland County Sheriff's Department Lt. James A'Hearn, a detective in the department's Homicide Task Force. Both A'Hearn and Oakland County Sheriff's Department Sgt. Clay R. Jansson of the Special Investigations unit, remember the time of killings well. A'Hearn was on the initial task force that investigated the killings and Jansson was a rookie patrolling southeast Oakland County when the murders ocurred.
"I was right in the middle of it. I worked in Birmingham and then went to work for the county later in '76," A'Hearn said. "After this got rolling the state police took over the investigation. The Oakland County chiefs of police got a grant to fund a task force. The homicide information went to three of the top pathologists around. The pathologists went through the cases and picked out the four that they thought were done by one person."
Both deputies become quiet and reflective when questioned about what the killer's motivations were or why the children were kept alive before being murdered.
When asked about the length of time the children were held before their murders and about the nature of their assaults, A'Hearn's eyes squint and seem to become more attentive. Both A'Hearn and Jansson say the crimes are the most brutal they've every heard of, and neither is willing to discuss specifics about the children's captivity and subsequent murders.
"In '76 and '77, I was a rookie police officer here with the sheriff's department working nights and working the Royal Oak/Birmingham area stopping cars, which was our order at the time. We were stopping everything that moved at that time in searching to find Timothy King," Jansson said. "The decision was made by then-prosecuting attorney L. Brooks Patterson, that if we saw a vehicle that looked suspicious or would lead us in the right direction, we had the green light to stop the vehicle and if we had the driver's permission, we would search the vehicle. The attitude of the community at that time was concern. It was a frightening time."
Both A'Hearn and Jansson said that pulling vehicles over to make inquiries became a more common occurrence after the first killing, and the practice was escalated by law enforcement officials by the time Timothy King was murdered.
"We tried to do everything we could to find Timothy King," Patterson recently said.
Patterson, A'Hearn and Jansson said that there were never any complaints lodged with the Oakland County Sheriff's Department or the county prosecutor's office regarding Civil Rights violations due to the aggressive vehicle stops and searches. The community, it appeared, was worried about one thing — finding the killer.
"There was a strong sense of awareness and people were taking preventative measures," A'Hearn said. "Any person in any phase of life was taking precautions."
Police officials good at not letting emotions involving a case spill out into the public, especially in front of the media. But privately, it's been made clear by those involved in this case that they would like to see the mystery solved regardless of whether the perpetrator is alive or dead.
"No one wants to retire with this case unsolved," Jansson said. "We want to solve this for the families."
There's one state police officer who's now retired but watching intently as the investigation continues. Former State Police Capt. Robert Robertson led the original Oakland County Child Killer Task Force. His son is Detective Sergeant David Robertson, who is now working on the investigation through the current task force.
Gray is the lead investigator on the case, the younger Robertson said. The task of collecting all the information regarding the case is a major part of the younger Robertson's responsibility.
"One of my tasks is to get all the information and data put into some kind of computer storage system or another," he said. "Gary (Gray) has the reigns and he's really driving the ship."
The younger Robertson's dad was in charge of a big operation when the initial task force was assembled.
"My dad was the assistant district commander," he explained. "At that time it was the first lieutenant rank in charge of detectives of the Michigan State Police out of Northville. When the State Police took the investigation and the task force was formed, he was the one who ran the investigation. Obviously, he didn't do everything, but he ran the operation. There were actually over 300 investigators involved at the peak of that investigation. It involved all the Oakland County agencies, state and federal agencies."
The elder Robertson retired in 1984. The younger Robertson said he can't reveal what's been said between father and son regarding the investigation, but indicated that his father has given him encouragement.
"All he really said was 'good luck,'" the younger Robertson said. "My brother is a detective with the Oakland County Sheriff's Department. We were all in high school when all this was going on. We lived in Livonia at that time. We remember (our father) being gone for long periods of time when this all first started. He would be gone before we started school and come home at about 11 p.m. That went on for, I think, about two years."
The younger Robertson said that he has two other brothers working in law enforcement. He said there were very few occasions that his dad brought the case home at the end of the day, no matter how long it was.
"He would bring a few boxes of tips or things home that he would clear, but he never really brought the job home," he said. "My dad was a musician and was very involved in the church so he had activities outside of work. I think that was a very positive thing for his mental state when he was investigating a case like this. For us it was more like 'Look, dad's on TV again.'"
The elder Robertson has been quoted in the past concerning the case, with his opinion broadcast on television and showing up in print.
"He's of the opinion that this guy (the suspect) is not among us anymore," the younger Robertson said. "The original theory is that the perpetrator(s) is dead or incarcerated. They were confident that the perpetrator was (jailed) or not with us any more. Remember, they did not have the network of information sharing that they have now. They did a lot of checking in other parts of the country and they never could find any links to similar homicides. They couldn't identify that this was a serial killer that was moving around the country. They never were able to make any kind of connection there."
The younger Robertson said he has "heard it all" when it comes to rumors and alleged sightings of individuals who are "odd" or "unusual" and potentially relevant to the case.
"We hear 'that composite drawing looks like a guy who tried to abduct me in '75," he said. "'I knew a guy who was strange and had a blue Gremlin.' We've pretty much discounted things like that. If they are going on the composite or the Gremlin, than there isn't a lot in those two items to pursue that tip."
Can the case be solved?
"Until there are no leads to follow up on," the younger Robertson said, "any case is solvable. I just don't think you can't solve it. You have to have the right information."
The younger Robertson acknowledges that there is "some" physical evidence that investigators have in their possession but he would not say what that evidence is.
"There is evidence," he said. "To say we have this golden fingerprint on the murder weapon — no, we don't have anything like that. If you can get the right circumstantial evidence you can make an air-tight case. I'm optimistic."
The younger Robertson said that the case still could remain unsolved for another 20 years and then — "boom" — a break could come in and the mystery gets solved.
"With technology, it could get solved," he said. "Everything changes. Back in '76 DNA was just three letters of the alphabet. Now, it's a very technical art. Even in the past three years it has changed significantly."
The stream of dead ends in the case has led all the way to Gillette, Wyoming, where the bones of David Norberg were exhumed. Norberg's DNA was matched with a single strand of hair found on Timothy King. But the investigation cleared Norberg.
Gray said whether there is something a person just remembered or something they want to make sure investigators are aware of, people are encouraged to call tips in at 248-584-5755.
"If you were afraid to step forward before, now is the time to act — 29 years is a long time to keep a secret," Gray said.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 6, 2013 5:14:33 GMT -5
If you had any thoughts that these Oakland County Child Murders would ever be solved- Consider the Title of this Thread today...It is a quote from a policeman's file... "OCCK Investigation Will Soon Be An Obscured Footnote Remembered By Few And Cared About By None"
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 8, 2013 0:05:10 GMT -5
Here are some thoughts on why I think John is the killer: 1) He had access to a home where he had "sole" access with an entrance to the back (garage in the back). He was living at the rental house next door to his parents. He had the means to keep someone for days/weeks. 2) Parents had troubled times during abductions - they eventually got divorced. This type of event often triggers instability with children. 3) Based on what John told Helen, his father was abusive and may have used objects anally on the two older boys to punish them. 4) John often saw his father hit his mother - very traumatic and offers more background of abuse in Hastings family. 5) John was a scout (?) and knew how to take care of himself, use knots and ropes, etc.. 6) John liked art - very well could have been the artist of the drawing in Christopher Busch's bedroom. 7) John was a good baseball player and enjoyed hockey - much like Tim King. He may have been involved with the Birmingham Little League in some way. 8) John told Helen about the killler's motive- that he was angry at society and felt left behind. His former friends had girlfriends, gone to outstanding universities and ended up with decent jobs while he had no prospects, few girl relationships and menial jobs. John felt he was in the middle of an entitled society - where he had zero entitlement. This made him angry. That was his motive - not sex. 9) Was yanked out of a Catholic high school during the middle of his senior year. This is most unusual. Was it grades? Abuse at the school? Was it due to financial trouble in the school? 10) John knew the area very well and had lived there since a young age. 11) A boy fell off the water tower at the end of his street in the fall of 1966. The boy, Anthony Mitchell was the son of a very wealthy GM executive. John, his brother Tom and Tony were all at the top of the tower when Tony fell. Was he pushed? That is something which will never be proven but ...what are the odds this happened in his presence and on the same street of his home? 12) He seemed to know details about the death of Bobby Grinnan in 1963 which most wouldn't know. John caddied at Knollwood Country Club, near where Bobby was found. 13) I think John is a calculating person. There is a reason behind each of the pick-up and drop-offs sites He may have wanted to taunt the police and society. 14) Psychopaths can pass lie detector tests (eg. Green River Killer). However, John was worried enough to contact the person who performed his last lie detector test; to try and explain one of his answers. Why would an innocent person do this? 15) Why has John, more or less dropped out of society since the killings? You cannot find any current information regarding him anywhere on the internet. No pictures, etc. Xxxxx Xxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 10, 2013 3:03:45 GMT -5
Helen, I don't know my stuff like you do! I think Cathy and her family are convinced Busch did it due to the Coffey Lie Detector story and this information contradicts the pedophile theory. I do feel bad for the Kings. LE has screwed all the victims familes (and the public) over the years. I just want the REAL killer(s) arrested. If that's not Busch or Hastings, so be it. Even if its someone else like Harold Clayton Anderson, great. However, nothing I know or have read about John eliminates him. In fact, his reclusive behavior since these killings has been VERY bizarre, to say the least. Paul
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 12, 2013 0:10:38 GMT -5
Helen, I read your and Cathy's sites often and I just can not wrap my head a round why these cases have not been solved,Can you give me an answer that will help me to get this? Jan * Jan,there are so many answers I could give you after working on these cases for 22 years. However the one that stands out to most and they understand-* The Oakland County Child Killer Task Force lacked leadership or at least coordination back in the 70's and sad but true the Michigan officials still do in 2013----36 years later the cases are still unsolved-Why? They just do not know what to do,nor can they read the original files...they just call all of the former officers who have worked on these cases and then come away with the same old ideas -that head them into the same areas and the same dead end-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 14, 2013 4:38:54 GMT -5
Helen, I'm waiting for that autopsy news. I read many times that the children did not appear to be neglected,they were protected from the elements and well nourished,the fact that they were apparently eating well would indicate they were not in extreme fear,distress, or in terror for their lives,so how did thy end up dead? Ralph * Ralph-we all read and were told a lot of things,now we are finding out that we were mislead on most,some of it is discouraging and some of it,is just plain sick! You will just have to wait until we can piece this whole thing together....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 16, 2013 3:01:27 GMT -5
HELEN GETS MAIL FROM DET.GRAY & ROBERTSON OCCK TASK FORCE(2005) Ms. Danger There is no longer an open investigation into the Xxxxxxxx family and the Oakland County Child Killings. This person was fully investigated by very competent investigators and closed for numerous reasons and documented facts. When we decided to rejuvenate the OCCK investigation several years ago, we did take a second look, and spent a reasonable amount of time combing over this particular suspect's case file and the information contained therein. I also talked to the investigators who actually worked on him. I concur with their findings and the matter remains closed. All of the information regarding this particular suspect is contained in a rather large binder in the case file room, sitting along side of numerous other lengthy investigations. You're not this first person, nor will you be the last, who disagrees with the investigation into "Their" suspect. I have literally dozens of people who swear their suspect is the one who did these horrible crimes. (Some with even more compelling information than yours). They too have what seems to be mountains of information, thought out facts, or any other twist they may have to fit their suspect, ( however all circumstantial), to support their claims. Several very disgruntled tipsters just happen to be retired law enforcement. They also get somewhat upset when I have to tell them the same thing I've told you. One even went to the news media with his dissatisfaction and complained that the State Police were not considering his "Theory". When the media contacted me regarding his information, and were shown what was done/documented, they agreed with us and the matter remained closed. However, if new information concerning Xxxxxxxx happens to surface, please let us know. But to rehash this same information over and over, year after year, only detracts from this investigation. You can't pound square pegs into round holes. Dets. Gray and Robertson HELEN ANSWERS MAIL TO DETS>GRAY & ROBERTSON OCCK TASK FORCE I don't know, I'm just still a little stunned at your response. I realize you can't chase in circles forever on one thing, but how can you for sure rule anyone out completely, unless you were present yourself? Until you begin to read all those tips that are unfiled, how can you even think you don't have the answer sitting in your own drawer? It's kind of sad that you are relying on citizens to present you with any new evidence, instead of pursuing it on your own. Since you allowed the media to look over the evidence that was in question in order to clear the other individual, would you also allow the media to look over the Xxxxxxxx family thick file? Please don't say it's protected, if the other person's file was opened to help prove the police right. When you say you actually talked to the investigators who "worked on him" (wow, that actually interviewed him), I assume your only talking about 2, maybe 3 investigators. I know one was not Jerry Tobias, who's no longer here to provide an opinion. If he was, I think he'd be at least willing and open to review his own work and try again. And Det Anger who's made the decision for everyone who is not the OCCK. If the head investigator back then, Robertson Sr, took the time to interview John, which I doubt, why would Robertson's son doubt any of that today? You sure can't pound square pegs into round holes, but maybe the round hole (also known by another name) is the problem.
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