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Post by Helen Dagner on May 21, 2013 0:44:49 GMT -5
Helen,So say John is the Occk,why would some guy living in Bloomfield Michigan,decide to kill children?Hal--Note: Possibly because he felt he didn't get what he needed as a child, from those around him,especially his mother and father ? It also indicated Johns possible antipathy toward his parents-perhaps over feeling unloved-and toward children who seemed to have what he felt he could not-I know he resented not having any normal relationships...and he viewed the world as hostile toward him-then the fact that he had a domineering father and mother who physically and emotionally abused him,and treated his two brothers and two sisters very well-I think he fear total abandonment by them all-this could have caused his rage-his self hatred-and developed his psychopathic nature-just think-how many times a day----day after day could you stand someone telling you,that you don't measure up to your ancestors? Personally I don't think John ever bonded with his parents-then there is his conflict with females-his financial stress-the resentment -the depression-at times he would lose grip on reality{,because it was a better place to be} --I think it is quite clear that John was destined to be a Serial Killer...
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 23, 2013 2:06:53 GMT -5
Helen, IMO, there is no way these crimes were committed by a “group” of people (pedophiles). These acts were committed by one person. Now, they may have had help from a family member or a very, very close friend of theirs. However, it’s tough enough for one person to keep a secret; let alone two. In fact, the murderer himself could not keep a secret as he told you back in Alpena! He doesn’t kill any more because he doesn’t want to get caught and his motive has been satisfied – get back at the snobby community.. Past lie detector tests? The science is much better now that it was back in those days. However, psychopaths/serial killers have passed lie detector tests (e.g. Green River Killer). Others have flunked and not been guilty. Christopher Busch would not have taken any girls and would have molested the two boys big-time; not post-mortem, etc . So would Green, Lamborgine or any of these other creeps from Fox Island or the Cass Corridor. The fact is – these creeps did not have access to these four kids. I could go on and on but won’t because we’ve been thru this drill already and I know you agree. These were not sexual crimes! The odds of Hastings living so close to Busch are astronomical. They must have known each other in some way. Perhaps thru a Hastings brother (most likely Mike) or menial jobs, which they both had back in those days. Or perhaps their fathers knew each other being neighbors, etc. What are the odds that the suspect, John Hastings worked with Ruth Stebbins, Mark’s mom? What are the odds that the suspect had taken a class with Jill’s father, Mr. Robinson as his teacher at OCC? What are the odds that the suspect, went to a Tiger game in July of 1976 on Tim’s birthday and told you this? What are the odds that the suspect bowled where Kristine Mihalich’s mom worked? The Big Boy maps, the Little House on the Prairie book, the bike, underwear patterns and the other details not known except to LE. is amazing knowledge for him to possess. What are the odds a kid, Anthony Mitchell “fell” off a water tower on the street where the suspect lived a few years earlier….and just happened to be an acquaintance of the suspect and a friend of the suspect’s brother? What are the odds that he was a rich kid of a GM auto exec much like Busch? Although John did not admit to that killing he did tell you that he was on the top of the water tower with his brother when Tony fell. Gee, what are the odds? Oh, and Office Gil Fowler found Tony the next morning. They didn’t tell anyone. Why? Because they didn’t want any chances to be caught. Gil = Gill Road? Bruce Lane – Bruce L. Danto? Gee. What are the odds? Why did he even put Danto’s home in Cranbrook on one of the maps he drew? The dump sites? It’s a sick puzzle. You put all of these odds together and it can only be one person in my book. John Hastings. Busch and John McKinney? They probably knew JH was the killer and had to be eliminated before they spilled the beans to LE. Oh. We knew Hastings loved art and drawing. Was Busch an artsy guy too? Gee, where did that picture at the suicide scene come from? Even if it isn’t Mark Stebbins its very disturbing. Like something psychopath/killer type would draw. This is all so easy. Where is Law Enforcement? Not all of the pieces may fit but someone from the FBI, Michigan State Police or Oakland County task force needs to get down to Atlanta and bring this guy back to Michigan, and speak with him or should I say, “Grill him!”. Also, his siblings, especially Mike and Tom. They know what transpired. They should all be grilled, as well. And Helen, you should be in the next room watching the grilling. You would be available for follow-up questions or anything they may have missed. Also, Mr.Robinson, Tim’s siblings and father should be there and look thru a one way glass to see if coming eye-to-eye with Hastings, in person rings any bells from the 70’s. Baseball? Hockey? Art? OCC class? Perhaps they need to see John’s photo from the 70’s. I’m thinking Tim’s little league or bantam hockey friends. The same goes for the Chris Busch living relatives, neighbor Harry Dunn and the maid. Maybe even Gunnels. It’s time to get this case wrapped up, once and for all and it’s so sickening to me that the killer continues to have his freedom as each day goes on. Thirty six tears and counting….but It’s never too late.
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 27, 2013 2:23:47 GMT -5
Helen,
The Kings are fixated on the fact that Busch is involved; primarily because of the Gunnels DNA match. I don't think any of them will change their minds without further information or evidence.
Like I said earlier, some people can't see the forest thru the trees but you have to remember that they have been emotionally spent on this case for years. This was their son and sibling. It all has to be very horrific for them.
I know you have put your heart and soul into this case, spent a lot of your own money and an incredible amount of time. Since the first day I corresponded with you I have believed your information. I wouldn't have contacted Mike Cox if I didn't believe your story. Frankly, I would not have sent the Rice Yearbook pictures to you either. I do think that John was the killer and that other Hastings are somehow, some way involved, perhaps marginally. I also know how much work you did on your own on Hastings follow-up...trying to prove John didn't do it! The rental house sell dates, the divorces, the connection to McKinney...etc. You have put so much into this and its tough on you to be called out, as well. Especially by the Kings after all you've done I know you want the killer caught #1 and foremost. If that's not Hastings great...just get the killer. However, of all the theories presented I think you are the one with the most accurate information.
What is your motive to lie?? Scorned lover? Give me a break. For fame? Um, I don't think so. You already have that! (LOL). You are an amazing person to stay with this and take bullets on message boards by others. Don't let it get you down! Stay with it. Also, Reasoning is a Godsend. His story is so believable on your YouTube video. The maps, etc.. This just confirmed what I had already believed. You just keep up the great work, stay with it and don't worry about message board attacks. You do have your followers. I am one of your biggest. I'm no dummy. I have played devil's advocate with your information often and 98% of the time you have given me a solid rebuttal.
I am pretty well educated and was "not born yesterday". I know a fraud when I see one and also know a credible person, as well. You are very credible and have done your homework over the years. I just ask you to stay with it because you've invested way too much. Xx Xxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on May 30, 2013 5:46:56 GMT -5
Money has its tongue that can talk with persuasive power; Sounds foolish to you? Well nothing else has worked,surely these four child victims are worth one million dollars,and there has to be someone out there that is willing to invest this amount of money,to bring and end to these cases. At one time Lawson wanted to make a deal for 50 thousand bucks to give info on the killer-However we all know now that he didn't have any Information of value-and there was no one who would even come forward with that small amount of money-But I really believe-If no money is involved-these cases have no chance of being solved-ever!!!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 3, 2013 4:46:05 GMT -5
Helen,your the one that always says "Never Reward Bad Behavior" Now you want someone,to offer the Occk a Million Dollars? Could you please take a minute to explain that to me? Ray* Note~ I'm going to,just not right now. I'm working on so many different Occk projects right now,that I do not even have a minute to spare. I have a lot of email posts in on this subject and have not even had the time to read them. So please hang in there,I will get at this soon.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 4, 2013 8:44:44 GMT -5
This would be a good reason to give the Oakland County Child Killer a Million Dollars -http://catherinebroad.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 4, 2013 8:48:26 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 8, 2013 0:10:40 GMT -5
Obviously, the killer was someone the kids trusted. Had to be. For that reason we can eliminate Chris Busch. One look at him and you know there's no way any kid (or for that matter any adult) is getting in a car with that guy. Hastings has simply been investigated and cleared too many times to warrant any further interest unless some new evidence pops up. At best, he had a very peripheral involvement of the "friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend-told-me" type thing.
Right now, I don't trust anybody's suspect. Everybody has their favorite and can reel off three dozen compelling reasons why it's him. You solve the case with your info and I'll believe you but until then I don't trust anybody's suspect. Right now, all we really have to go on is the evidence at hand which isn't a lot.
We can safely eliminate the blue Gremlin thing. That has never produced anything useful and has sent the cops on wild goose chases. Same with the hair found on Tim King's body. That could have come from anybody. The killer could have deliberately planted it. It's not really that good a piece of evidence as many seem to think. At best, it's 50-50 that it ever proves anything.
Putting Robinson's bike in the trunk is reasonable to assume. She wouldn't just leave it there although I have a problem with the killer bringing it back and placing it off Main Street where he could have been observed but that's likely what he did because I can't believe the girl just left the bike to go somewhere with this individual. He probably did it in the wee hours of the morning after the bars closed.
About the girls being molested, we don't have any hard evidence to suggest it. In fact, the impression I get is that the girls were taken for bonding purposes otherwise why was Mihelich kept for so long? The killer bonded with her. I can't think of any other reason. Why was Robinson kept only three days--less than any of the others--and then shot in the face? The evidence showed she was shot where she lay. That indicates she was already incapacitated, dead or unconscious when it happened. IOW, she would have died whether shot or not. Apparently, Robinson wasn't in the bonding mood so the killer got rid of her and then shot her in the face as a show of disrespect. A way of saying, "I didn't like this one."
The two boys had marks showing that they had been bound. They had been sodomized with a dildo or other object. It's reasonable to assume they were bound for this reason.
I think in all cases, the children were told they were going to be set free. Had to be. Otherwise how do you get a child to eat a last meal of fried chicken if he knew he was going to die?
The method of asphyxiation is open to question. I think Dagner thought it was a muscle relaxant. That's actually not a bad assumption. It would answer a lot of questions. No violence has to be committed, no fighting and struggling, no pleading and screaming. You just inject them at a moment that they don't expect it and they just go limp and die within 10 or 15 minutes. That could explain how King's body could still be warm. However, it would depend on what the autopsy found and whether any muscle relaxants were ever tested for.
When you add it up: Girls not molested, one kept 19 days, boys sodomized with an object, clothes washed and pressed, bodies bathed, pedicures and manicures, last meals, no death struggles all point to something not too many give much credence to: the killer could have been a female. If you're a child and a woman calls you to her car, you're probably not going to be wary at all. Even calling the killer "Babysitter" implies a female presence.
But whether male or female, the next issue we must think about is exactly how the killer got the child to their place of captivity without things getting messy. If some man or woman you know says, "Let me drive you home" and then takes off in another direction, you're probably going to fight. If I were Tim King, I would have bashed with you with my skateboard.
That leads me to think there was more than one person in the car. So we probably have at least two people working in collusion. Possibly males were carrying out the orders of a female. In cases like that, it's usually a mother-son thing. Xxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 10, 2013 2:55:01 GMT -5
Helen,
Quick question. Do the deceased policeman’s notes make you think of John as the OCCK even more, less of s suspect or no impact on your previous beliefs? Thanks.
Greg Note: I just received some more files -so will wait until I finish reading them,before I answer your question-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 11, 2013 1:06:59 GMT -5
Looking For Former Cops Who Worked During The Oakland County Child Murders 1976-77 Who Are Willing To Cross "The Thin Blue Line"-This needs to be done and it needs to be done soon...Bingotank@aol.com Or Call Me In Petoskey, for details- Thanks,Helen
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 12, 2013 0:06:01 GMT -5
How was the Kidnapper able to snatch four kids in broad daylight with out anyone seeing or hearing anything-My answer to that would be-What makes you think the kidnapper snatched them at all? What if the kidnapper invited them into a situation they thought was regular?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 13, 2013 4:30:38 GMT -5
Though LE rely on Scientific methods,Evidence, and Truth-Solving homicides is an art and it is a very difficult job...if not done properly.The Occk cases can not relie on DNA and Computer Technology...It needs instead old fashion detective work and unfortunately no one is willing to put the time in ...to knock on doors. They have a small amount of facts actually on a database..over the years they have talked about this massive database that they hoped to set up-even told us they had a grant for it...but that was not true-The majority of information is still in loose paper files. A Task Force is supposed to be about solving murders...setting up a data base is a good idea,but alone this will not solve the Oakland County Child Murders-Now it would take so long to get one set up,I mean we are talking about a long length of time -to put the thousands of bits of information that these four cases have accumulated over 36 years-and who would choose what was important to go into this data basic? No one has been able to figure out to this day...what is important-and with that said-If they enter everything they had...There still would not be a button you could push that would make the Killer stand out...If the State Police and the current Multi- Jurisdictional Task Force ( If There Is One Operating) Compiled all the information hoping that their computer would find common denominators of one individual that would implicate him in these homicides-what about all the information that was originally destroyed --and what about all the information that was taken home by individual police officer and never put in any file...because they were going to solve these cases on their own? I'm not sure, but I would like to think that information would have to be included, in order to have any confidence at all in a Occk database--So I guess it is back to The State Police yearly Sensationalism which will continue accomplishing nothing more than giving the suspect ample time to destroy more evidence...
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 16, 2013 2:48:28 GMT -5
1976 THE FIRST 2 VICTIMS DISAPPEAR Feb. 15: Mark Stebbins, 12, of Ferndale, left his mother at an American Legion Hall on Livernois near 9 Mile to go home and watch a movie on television. A pedestrian found him four days later in a shopping center parking lot at 10 Mile and Greenfield in Southfield. He had been raped and smothered. Dec. 22: Jill Robinson, 12, of Royal Oak, ran away after arguing with her mother about chores. Her bicycle was found the next day behind a hobby store on Woodward Avenue. Her body was found four days later on the snowy shoulder of northbound I-75 just north of Big Beaver in Troy. She died of a 12-gauge shotgun blast to the head. 1977 TASK FORCE FORMED WHEN TWO MORE CHILDREN VANISH Jan. 2: Kristine Mihelich, 10, of Berkley, had gone to a 7-Eleven store on 12 Mile near Greenfield in Berkley to buy a teen magazine. A mailman found her body 19 days later in a snow-covered ditch along Bruce Lane, a dead-end street near 13 Mile and Telegraph in Franklin. She had been smothered. Jan. 22: Oakland County police departments, the sheriff and Michigan State Police mobilize a task force to investigate the killings. A task force member works below. A $100,000 reward eventually is offered for the arrest of the killer. Jan. 25: Flint police arrest Gregory Greene, 27, of Flint on charges of sexually assaulting children. He tells investigators that an associate — Christopher Busch, 26, of Bloomfield Township — killed Mark Stebbins. Both men pass state police polygraph exams. Greene is convicted and sentenced to life in prison for assaulting boys. Busch, son of a General Motors executive, receives probation for assaulting boys in four counties. March 16: Timothy King, 11, of Birmingham, had borrowed 30 cents from his sister to buy candy at a nearby drugstore near Maple and Woodward Avenue. A clerk saw him leave through a rear door into a parking lot. His body was discovered six days later in a ditch along Gill Road south of 8 Mile in Livonia. He had been raped and suffocated. A shopper tells police she saw a boy with a skateboard in the drugstore parking lot talking to a man near a late-model blue Gremlin. The task force circulates a sketch of the suspect. March 23: Authorities speculate that the killer is someone children trust, like a doctor, priest or police officer. The crimes terrify parents and cause police to troll gay bars and stop hundreds of Gremlin drivers. April: Detroit criminal psychiatrist Dr. Bruce Danto receives a letter from a man named Allen, who says he lives with the killer. But Allen fails to show up for a meeting at a gay bar and Danto concludes he has been murdered by the child killer. 1978 INVESTIGATION CONTINUES WITHOUT RESOLUTION Nov. 20: Ex-suspect Christopher Busch, 27, found dead of a .22-caliber rifle shot to the head in his bedroom at his parents' Bloomfield Township home. The death is ruled a suicide. Police find a pencil drawing of a screaming boy pinned to a bedroom wall, right. Three decades later, police conclude that the boy looks like Mark Stebbins. Dec. 15: Task force shuts down after $2-million probe and 20,000 tips. "The fact that we did not solve the crime is on the minds of everybody, but at least we can sleep at night knowing we did the best job we could," says State Police Lt. Robert Robertson, the task force coordinator. 1999 INVESTIGATION RESUMES IN RECLUSE, WYO. Aug. 31: Oakland County authorities remove hair, bone and tissue from the exhumed body of David Norberg in Recluse, Wyo., to see whether his DNA matches hair found on a victim. The former Warren autoworker and child killer suspect moved to Wyoming in 1980 and died in a car crash in 1981. His widow alerts authorities after finding a silver cross inscribed with the name "Kristine." Kristine Mihelich's aunt recalls under hypnosis that her niece had an identical necklace. But FBI lab tests fail to find a DNA match. 2005 TASK FORCE REACTIVATES USING MODERN FORENSICS Feb. 18: State detectives restart child killer task force after a 26-year hiatus. Nov. 30: Task force says FBI failed to match DNA from four men — two of them living — with hair found on one of the victims. It said the results, though disappointing, don't clear the suspects. It said the hair could have fallen off an ambulance attendant or medical examiner. 2006 INVESTIGATION TURNS TO ACCUSED PEDOPHILE SUSPECT Dec. 11: Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy says Theodore Lamborgine, 65, of Parma Heights, Ohio, is "our most promising suspect" in the child killings. But the task force downplays her comment. Lamborgine is accused of operating a pedophile ring in Detroit's Cass Corridor. He later pleads guilty to 14 sex assaults and is sentenced to three life prison terms rather than accept a plea deal to cut his sentence to 15 years but require him to take a polygraph exam in the child killer case. 2007 TASK FORCE REVISITS AN ORIGINAL CHILD KILLER SUSPECT July 31: Task force launches probe after hearing that Southfield polygrapher Lawrence Wasser supposedly confided to another examiner that a man who turned out to be Christopher Busch confessed in a private polygraph test in the mid-1970s to being the child killer. Wasser denies the claim. Aug. 23: Task force detective says investigators have found an overlooked hair sample that was left on one of the victims. It will be compared with the DNA of 12 potential suspects. 2008 EVIDENCE FROM BLOOMFIELD TOWNSHIP SUSPECT EXAMINED June 10: The FBI says DNA from Busch and several other suspects doesn't match DNA in hair found on victim. Oct. 29: Detectives search Busch's former home in Bloomfield Towship for dog hair and other trace evidence to try to match what was found on the victims. Results of the search are never revealed. 2009 LAB FINDS DNA MATCH BETWEEN SUSPECT AND KRISTINE MIHELICH March 5: The FBI says its lab technicals have made a mitochondrial DNA match between James Gunnels, 47, of Kalamazoo and a hair found on Kristine Mihelich. Investigators say Gunnels was sexually assaulted by Busch and later socialized with Busch and Greene. Gunnels rode in Busch’s car many times but says he didn’t know Kristine or how his hair might have gotten onto her. Mitochrondrial DNA match isn’t as precise as nuclear DNA match. 2011 GRAND JURY PROBES COLD CASES INCLUDING CHILD KILLINGS July 14: Oakland County officials say a citizens grand jury convened in late May. 2012 VICTIM'S FAMILY SUES FOR INFORMATION April 23: Detroit attorney Paul Hughes files a $100-million federal lawsuit on behalf of Deborah Jarvis against Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica Cooper, Sheriff Michael Bouchard and state police investigators, accusing them of stonewalling victims' families. Hughes, Jarvis and their anonymous tipster named Bob want the U.S. Department of Justice to take over the probe. Cooper and Bouchard accuse Hughes and Bob of exploiting Jarvis' grief. SOURCES: Archives from Detroit Free Press, Detroit News, Associated Press, Downtown Birmingham-Bloomfield Magazine and documents Barry King obtained from the Michigan State Police PHOTOS BY DETROIT FREE PRESS STAFF PHOTOGRAPHERS, FILE PHOTOS, ASSOCIATED PRESS, STATE POLICE AND COUNTY FILE IMAGES
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 18, 2013 3:24:17 GMT -5
Among the evidence, he said, is a smudged fingerprint and a hair found on one of the victims---" THE LIFE TIME BACKFIRE IN YOUR FACE AWARD" Why would Det. Gray put the sperm in his search warrant in 2008-when he knew it wasn't true-I will be telling you why.. Norbergs Warrant was also inaccurate.*"Either Ray was confused or in error when he told you that," Halushka said Wednesday. The sperm reference "was directly written on the autopsy report," and transferred to the warrant request that Anger reviewed and approved, he said. Anger said he was unaware of errors in the warrant. ****Investigators have said the presence of sperm noted in the original autopsy report on the killer's first known victim, Mark Stebbins, was later determined to be incorrect. The hairs in Kristine Mihelich's mouth were eventually identified as her own, and an animal's, Anger said. Steven Lorch, laboratory director for the State Police Northville Forensic Laboratory that is preparing the evidence to be sent to the FBI lab in Washington, said he's unaware of DNA evidence other than the one hair.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 19, 2013 2:24:45 GMT -5
STUDT ASKED DOES JOHN HAVE THE BOOK CATCHER IN THE RYE? Not only did John have the Book-He believed he was the Catcher In The Rye-We discussed this in 2006 on our site and found some Interesting comments from are readers~ This is one from Cathy~"Helen, I read this book many times and not just for various classes. I remember it very well. This, of all of your emails, has chilled me the most. I went looking for my copy of the book earlier tonight, but I couldn't find it. The first thing that struck me about that remark was that Holden Caulfield was a 17-year-old, telling a story about a day he spent in New York when he was 16. Jesus, John was ten years older than that! You would think the average person would be over their cynical adolescent/alientation phase by then. Because I could not find my copy, I went to Amazon.com for the summary/review, although I have had children who have had to read it and I have reread it out of curiousity over the years. Holden describes a field of thousands of kids in a field of rye, near a cliff, with "nobody big, except me." He pictures/dreams of using his deceased younger brother's baseball glove to catch the kids if they start to go over the cliff that is nearby. He (Holden) has, of course, changed the lyric of the song in his own mind from "if a body meet a body, coming through the rye," to "if a body catch a body, coming through the rye." Catch could mean "catch" or snatch, or "catch" as in save from the life he had experienced. Is Patti (Patty?) the sister Phoebe in The Catcher in the Rye? Is she the female accomplice? Here is a frightening thing--I read a few of the Amazon reviews, clearly written by younger people (like high school age). The last review of the first listed version of the book states: "I think that this is a guy that does not get a lot of attention or just does not want to be around a lot of people, but later in the book you find out he loves to be around young kids." This was chilling enough, Helen. Later, when I read Alpena_Witness' post of today (something about John said wanted to live with the kids before he killed them, played games, etc.), my blood ran cold. C ----- Original Message ----- One Post From Reasoning~"Cultural references to the novel The Catcher in the Rye From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The most well-known event associated with The Catcher in the Rye is arguably Mark David Chapman's murder of John Lennon[14] Chapman identified with the novel's narrator to the extent that he wanted to change his name to Holden Caulfield. On the night he shot Lennon, Chapman was found with a copy of the book in which he had written "This is my statement" and signed Holden's name.[15] Later, he read a passage from the novel to address the court during his sentencing.[16] Daniel Stashower speculated that Chapman had wanted Lennon's innocence to be preserved by death, inspired by Holden's wish to preserve children's innocence despite Holden's later realization that children should be left alone.[16] After John Hinckley, Jr.'s assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan in 1981, police found The Catcher in the Rye among half a dozen other books in his hotel room.[17] Robert John Bardo, who murdered Rebecca Schaeffer, was carrying the book when he visited Schaeffer's apartment in Hollywood on July 18, 1989.[18] As numerous murders have been speculated to be connected to the novel, the main character of the film Conspiracy Theory is a paranoid skeptic with an uncontrollable urge to purchase it.[15] Taken From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_references_to_the_novel_The_Catcher_in_the_Rye * From Mel~I'm a year older than John. "The Catcher in the Rye" was required reading for my generation. And not required by any school curriculum. We cut our rebellious, anti-establishment teeth on Catcher in the Rye. That book was a rite-of-passage for us, an anthem to our baby-boomer teenage angst. It's right up there with the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction," as in, "I can't get no."--lol--Most of us read "Catcher" and ended up doing too much sex and drugs and rock n roll. Evidently, one read it, and became a serial killer. Not sure how much Catcher in the Rye had anything to do, with any of it. But, don't let me interrupt the interesting discussion. lol Mel
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