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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 22, 2012 23:19:21 GMT -5
"We are urging anyone with information to come forward. Any information, as insignificant as it may seem, could be vital to this investigation." I guess I read this wrong, on Friday after numerous Emails from readers who said no one was answering the phone at the Tip line, I decided to call there myself and would not only bring my four questions to the attention of the Investigators, but I would mention the Items that I had received from the public. Well, the first call just rang and rang, so I hung up and thought I will give them a call later, while I was doing this a light bulb went on for me, and I remembered my name and phone number would be showing up on their phone, so I reached for my toss away, and got right through. I said Hello to the guy named _____ and said "I bet you are very busy" he said "well I have a lot of phones to answer," I could tell there was someone else there, as you know how a kid acts when he is on a phone and thinks he is being clever, couple little snickers, a hard time containing his glee, so I said to -------- would you have time to write down four items that would be able to be looked up in the Birmingham PD- FOIA papers and maybe it would help you out with your investigation of Sloan . Reluctantly he said Ok, ,but he kept having this under lying laughter going on, so by now I know he thinks it is a joke. So I decided to give him my tips more rapidly, at least to where he would have to ask me to slow down, so that way I would know if he was actually writing them down or not. He didn't ask me to slow down,when I got to the fourth tip, he says "Hello-Hello-are you still there"? I answered , however, he didn't want me to know he could hear me, so he hung up. Now I want to point out that -------- was talking very nice to me, but it was clearly apparent that he didn't want to be bothered. I have used that same tactic to get off the phone with people I didn't want to talk to -at least a hundred times in my life time, but then I wasn't answering a phone at a Hot Tip Line for a Serial Killer Task Force who had just said in 200 media outlets *"We are urging anyone with information to come forward. Any information, as insignificant as it may seem, could be vital to this investigation.." There is more to this incident as I followed up by calling the Task Force. I will tell you about that when I hear back from the Lt. That is if I hear back from the Lt.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 22, 2012 23:34:28 GMT -5
Next I would like to give you a few Tips for when you call in your tips, I have learned these along the way, they will also be useful if you email your tip in, In February of this year. I was growing very tired of having been told by one of my sources that 'Patrick the Polygrapher' Information was not a valid tip, expressly because he was posting many post on the Internet,explaining what had come about and how this related to Chris Busch, I couldn't get any satisfaction verbally from my source, so I thought look, I don't want to keep hammering on this Patrick if what he is saying is true and I was begging to think it was. However I only deal in black and white, never in the gray area, so I copy several of his posts and wrote a cover letter, that basically asked "Does this sound like a guy who is lying about an event in his life, that he would fly to Michigan on his own Dime"?? Go to Court and have a written document of it?? I'm just asking you for the truth. Once again I was told Busch is not even a suspect. So I send and Email back and asked if anyone had told Patrick that. Has anyone told the Kings that,have you told the Public that?? I added "Well, you know I'm beginning to believe Patrick," so if I can not get a straight answer out of you, then I am going to post saying "Patrick's story is TRUE! Well, I went from having a direct line, to not being able to reach this person, also my emails go on answered.---Moral of this story? Do not mention Patrick---It doesn't end there-see the next post.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 22, 2012 23:50:35 GMT -5
A month ago I could get right through to the Oakland County Prosecutors office ---my God, they even called me back. I was Impressed. I had a couple of opportunities to call them the following week, I thought " Wow, this is a great group"! Everyone was so pleasant, and asked me right away if I wanted to talk to Jessica or Paul, I said neither, just give them this message please. Well two weeks ago I called the Clerk's office to inquire about the court date hearing of Mr. King and Jessica, and the gal said "you will have to get that right from the Prosecutors office if you do not have a case number". So, I explained to the gal, that I never had a case number for anything I wanted to know and your office always gave me the answers, she said well it has changed and if you call there they can tell you if it is still going to go forward. So I call and ask the girl at Jessica's office if I could have a case number or the Info to tell me if the hearing will still take place on the 27 of this month, she said why do you want to know? I explained that I had so many Inquiries from site readers wanting to know, so I wanted to use it as a news item. She said well you will have to call her Administrative something or other,----Ok, can I have that phone number? She said well she is not in , she is at lunch, I couldn't resist it, so I said it is after 2pm, how long do you expect her to be at lunch? She didn't answer so I said I will need that number, so she gave it to me. I placed a couple of calls to her, but never reached her, so on my last call I left a message that was never returned. Next day I called the clerk's office back, spoke to a different clerk, explained that I couldn't get the Info from the Prosecutors office and she was surprised to hear that as that kind of thing is part of their job! So she gave me the number to the the Judges Chamber, which I called. A very nice clerk answered the phone and explained it all to me, that there were still 3-more motion days so if I called her back after the one on the 25th, she would be able to tell me if the July 27th Hearing still remained on the Docket. Moral of this story, when calling for Court Info or calling a Tip Line -Do not use the name King.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 23, 2012 17:00:17 GMT -5
Alpena Witness-I have walked into a real dilemma with this whole thing and it is frustrating. Taking a quote from Casual Observer where she describes me as “It is as if this witness awakened only to find that they are a key player in someone else’s nightmare”. I don’t think anyone could describe it any more accurate than that. I should say that I have no bones to pick with LE. I got involved with this thing rather late and have no grudges to anyone. I just want the truth to be known. I actually had a total neutral opinion of the OCCK investigation, basically I knew nothing about it really to have an opinion. However, I’m slowly establishing an opinion of it and it’s not a good one! I eventually made contact with three investigators of the OCCK. For the sake of simplicity let’s just say I forgot their names. It’s completely irrelevant whom I talked to from LE anyway.
When I did wake up to this, it was shocking. I couldn’t get over the fact that these imaginary children and murders that this man was rambling on about are real murder victims. What was also so strange to me is that these murders occurred 14 years previous to this discussion at Big Boy. I just would have never believed that this was the case. I felt really stupid and guilt feeling for just blowing this off thinking it was just nonsense. I guess if I had a chance in life to relive something, I wish I could revisit that time but would have known something about the OCCK details. Maybe just the children’s names or the bath thing would have helped.
After getting over the shock of my discovery, the first thing I did was email to Helen. I wanted her to at least know that someone was there. She might even remember me sitting there when she gave me the strange look. I didn’t get into any details about what I heard or the map details I just couldn’t. One thought that entered my head was that the police already investigated this case in Alpena afterwards and found nothing so there was no need to get into any real details like that. I really didn’t want to get involved at that point anyway and I felt there was really no need. So I just wrote to her and gave minor details just to acknowledge that I was there like where they sat in the restaurant, the date this occurred, etc. So this started the correspondence with Helen.
Meanwhile I kept thinking that maybe I should do more. It just doesn’t seem right that here I remember this so clearly and maybe the police should know. I talked to a retired police officer friend. I wanted his opinion and was hoping he would know something about this. After going into all the detail he felt I should contact the police immediately and let them know. He felt that the OCCK case is still unsolved and maybe I witness something that could shed light on it. He really didn’t know much about
OCCK because he wasn’t a cop in Oakland County at the time.
Going to the police station local to me they gave me a phone number for the OCCK investigation. I called and told them in detail what I witnessed with this couple at Alpena Big Boy. The man asked me does this have to do with Helen Dagner? I said yes, I believe so. He told me there is no validity to anything Helen Dagner says. I told him that’s not true, I was there and I can assure you the discussions took place. He said, I must have seen a different couple because it was not Helen and John. He told me that John is from a respectable family and there is no way he’s the OCCK. He told me that I could fill out a police report anyway if I want. I figure what’s the use in doing this. After I got off the phone I thought to myself, ‘What the hell is this all about?’ ‘A respectable family?’, since when does that matter on something like this? Who was this guy I saw and heard in Alpena, Big Boy that talked like someone completely nuts? How could he be ruled out that quick by just stating he’s from a respectable family? I wondered if maybe someone from the Kennedy family was visiting Alpena in 91? What are the odds of sitting in the same restaurant in the same town, same year, hearing a couple talk about child killings and drawing maps on placemats but it was a different couple? I didn’t even have the nerve to tell Helen this. I thought to myself the police don’t even believe her but here I am absolutely certain of what I witnessed. Am I holding the key to something and I just need to let the right person in LE know? How can I present this to whomever so they at least know that I’m not a crackpot? It started to really bother me emotionally. My friends just told me to put it down and just forget about it. It’s hard to do that when you know part of this is the absolute truth. Oh yeah that’s the night that guy was talking like a nut at Big Boy. In the middle of this ‘internet fairy tale’ comes real parts of a discussion I heard with a couple in front of me where I could tie a date, a face, a Troy map. the booth location where they sat, what they wore, the waitress that served us that night and many other details.( and this story tells you-Do Not Mention Helen Dagner or her site)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 23, 2012 17:06:21 GMT -5
Helen,I only received an acknowledgement from L. Brooks Patterson's staffer that they received it and fowarded it to the correct authorities (plus he thanked me). He indicated that L. Brooks was not directly involved anymore.
I sent it to Jessica Cooper and it came back as undelivered. I called her office and was told to send it to another e-mail address. It too came back as undelivered. I gave up at that point as I figured that the L. Brooks's staffer sent it on to her office, anyway. Xxxx
-----Original Message-----Note do not mention my site or my Oakland County Child Victim Videos-If asked -deny any knowledge of either-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 24, 2012 4:15:26 GMT -5
Helen, Just about a year ago I called in a Tip from 35 years ago that I had reported to Robertson Sr. and I wanted to know if anything had ever become of it. While talking to the young Deputy, I mention that I was a regular reader of your site for years and had seen yet another item on your site that boosted my claim.Well needless to say, his other phone was ringing and he had to say good-by and answer it. Pam - Note- Do not tell anyone how long you have been a reader of my sites,as it is an instant Good Bye
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 25, 2012 0:21:37 GMT -5
Dear Senators, The Oakland County Michigan Child Killer: www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Oakland_murders.htmlWhen Helen Dagner once again tried to tell her story to Lt Edwards......she was being laughed at behind her back. As her e-mail circulated in which she made reference to a "chicken bone" placed in the pocket of one of the victims by the killer........the officials had a laugh. One official, Sandy McMillan, made this comment in an e-mail.... "Would you like me to just go out and shoot her...........chicken bone and all." But the joke was on HIM as instead of forwarding the e-mail....he sent it BACK to Helen! We know it was a harmless joke.....though this isn't something that should be joked about. But if the shoe was on the other foot and Helen had made the comment.....she would likely be in jail as a result of such an error. From what we hear through the grapevine.....higher officials are looking into that situation....so as a gesture of goodwill and only wanting to see justice in this case.....we removed the e-mail for the time being. Hard to place sole blame of the officer that sent her the e-mail as the original was sent to a superior of his.....and one has to wonder how it got to the joke point. No personal ill will was intended for the officer in question. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time...and got caught. He did send Helen a very short note apologizing. Has the state police been under investigation for abuse and mis-use of internet & E-mail?? The case as a whole.......I know it is hard to blame an individual.....or even a group. I am sure all would like to see justice prevail obviously. One statement from officials about the case : "There is a new public push to gather and analyze tips and evidence," said Oakland County Sheriff's Lt. Mark Newman. "We still haven't forgot about the victims and everyone wants these cases solved." Could it be the web-site and the e-mails we have been sending out over the past 2 years?  ? Never a reply until we wrote to the state Senators... Even the story there are 12 suspect has been disputed.......accordong to the Daily Tribune on February 5th.....State Police Detective Lt. Ive Edwards and other investigators DENIED reports that they have roughly a dozen suspects that they expect to narrow down to ONE in the coming months. Whether Helen has a valid tip or not..."John" might or might not be the ONE...that's for the officials to decide.....but I would like to see someone credible take her in and get the whole story from her. They have yet to do that. Some have contacted her vowing to get the whole story...yet none have ever followed through. And no one can answer the question about the Federal agent and the county prosecutor...as outlined here: www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Senate.htmlObviously I would like to see these issues resolved. Hard to blame offficers who's hands may be tied. Politics don't mean anything when children have DIED. So.....I want this to be an issue that will NOT just go away. After 25 years....it is time for resolution....and efforts must continue. I intially wanted to support officials in any way possible. Still do. I think the ball is finally rolling.....and I would like to see it keep rolling. Not only on this case but many others that have gone stale. Maybe sometimes things need a "push". Why do I want to help Helen?? I've been in the same boat myself......but I had the last laugh.... Courttv.com/news/hiddentraces/boyinthebox/tent_girl.htmlIt doesn't matter to me whether her "John" is the killer or not as long as every thing is being followed up on. Her John I hear has been cleared 4 times....how do we know the last time is any more stable than the first 3 times?? Now that they ARE going to do an intense look at the case.....will they take Helen serious enough to review her data once again?? In a serious and thorough fashion?? Imagine the pain of a murdered or missing child! I cannot imagine any greater horror. Until the person who did this is OFF the streets.....he is someone's neighbor.....somewhere....what if he's your neighbor?? More info is on the web-site.....and Helen has even MORE data. One thing never mentioned on the web-site..........Helen's daughter a Detective Sgt. of a Michigan Sheriff's Department and her son-in-law is also a police officer in Michigan, now if Helen was way off base with all of this....wouldn't it be likely that they would have stopped her by now?? |
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 25, 2012 0:24:49 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 25, 2012 23:15:12 GMT -5
GETTING ME READY FOR THE NEXT'S TRIP DOWN THE RIVER?
My attack on you really had very little to do with you. You see at the time I had an accident in may of 04. In june of 04 I had to have emergency surgery on my back. A few more days and I may of died. I then lost the best job and highest paying job I ever had because of my injury. I had to fight with each and every insurance company, and I still I'm fighting with a few. In August my wife gave birth to our son. So from August through November I had mouths to feed and neither of us were working or making any money. I almost lost my house in November. It had been a very bad couple of months for us and In the middle of it all I choose you to take it out on. And I'm sorry for that. Since then my wife has gone back to work. I started a new job at the same company for less money, but at least I can feed my kids. Everything seems to be working out, and I'm glad I can pitch in here on occk. I've decided to give occk one year. After that I'm gonna take a long look and decide from there.
Kevin
----- Original Message -----Dated-2004 ~ Now in 2012 he still continues his 9 year harassment of me ~ With Les Martin and The rest of The Old Defunct Yahoo Group Members
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 25, 2012 23:27:32 GMT -5
You are Nancy Andrews Deputy Managing Editor for Multimedia Detroit Free Press 600 West Fort St. Detroit, Michigan 48226 nandrews@freepress.com
In the last several weeks, you have allowed many untrue statements about me to be posted on the Detroit Free Press Forums also several posts of very personal informaton about me and my family. I'm sure you are well aware that contents are not only against normal persons standard of credibility, but also in violation of Internet rules and regulations , of slander -libel and are against state and federal laws.
And in your case I have contacted you several times and on your recommendation... I contacted your moderators.... and requested they view the posts for possible deletion ....which they ignored & have infact allowed and increase in this behavior. This is not freedom of speech by anyone's standards. Interestingly enough these posts should have been deleted for being off topic instead you have provided an out let for unscrupulous people to libel & slander me. I would like you to cease this immediately.
Regards, Helen Dagner//// Note this was to do with the Old Defunct Yahoo Group~( The Free Press Took Down The Site immediately.)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 26, 2012 0:16:04 GMT -5
Re-Post-2005~Hi Susan,
The hair was found on Tim King after his body had been handled by a few people. The M.E. did not bag Tim's hands or his body. So this brings a big question about the hair.
Try calling the MSP tip line and leave a message. If you can't get through to anyone, let me know and I will give Det Gray's direct number.
Kevin
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 27, 2012 2:01:31 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 27, 2012 2:28:17 GMT -5
9 police agencies in 29-year-old case
February 19, 2005 ******Gray said that in addition to the new tips, new technology -- computerized databases and new methods of DNA and fingerprint matching -- could help solve the case.
Among the evidence, he said, is a smudged fingerprint and a hair found on one of the victims.**** Where is that fingerprint? Or is it being saved for ACT-36?*****
BY FRANK WITSIL
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
New information is turning up the heat on a case opened 29 years ago today when police found the body of a 12-year-old Ferndale boy -- and later, the bodies of three other children -- all abducted and then killed, police said Friday.
"This case will not be closed until we find out who did it," Michigan State Police Detective Sgt. Garry Gray said, officially announcing that nine police agencies plan to pursue the case of the Oakland County child killings with renewed vigor and optimism. "We have not given up."
Gray said the new information surfaced within the past month. However, he declined to discuss the new leads, saying only that they appear credible and consistent and that disclosing them now might dissuade the tipster from talking.
For years, police have been seeking a suspect originally described as a professional white man -- possibly driving a blue AMC Gremlin.
"He may still be in the area," Gray said. "He may still be alive."
But, police also said, the new search may challenge detectives to rethink what they have thought for years.
Flanked by police officers from eight other police agencies at the State Police Oak Park Post, Gray said that in addition to the new tips, new technology -- computerized databases and new methods of DNA and fingerprint matching -- could help solve the case.
Among the evidence, he said, is a smudged fingerprint and a hair found on one of the victims.
In the meantime, Gray said, he is seeking a federal grant to pay for the database, which could take a year to develop, and detectives installed a hotline for anyone with information to call. "The tip line has been ringing off the hook," Gray said.
The four children who were killed in 1976 and 1977 -- Mark Stebbins, 12, of Ferndale; Jill Robinson, 12, of Royal Oak; Kristine Mihelich, 10, of Berkley; and Timothy King, 11, of Birmingham -- were abducted while alone and held for several days and left on roadsides.
Their bodies, police said, appeared to have been washed before they were placed near roads.
The cases were linked to a single suspect because they seemed to fit a similar pattern.
Barry King, the father of Timothy King, the last victim found, sat quietly while Gray talked about the case. King attended the announcement to show his support for police efforts, Gray said, but he declined to discuss his son's death because the memories were too painful.
Shortly after the slayings, police set up a task force of about 250 police officers to investigate. Patrols were assigned to watch certain areas and tens of thousands of tips were collected -- but none pointed to the killer.
In the months and years that followed the deaths, the county was gripped by fear, police said.
Berkley Police Sgt. Ray Anger and Ferndale Police Det. George Hartley, police officers who were involved in the investigation after the bodies were found and have continued to pursue a killer, said the suspect's description came from a woman who said she saw Timothy King talking to in a Birmingham parking lot just before he disappeared. She also reported seeing a blue Gremlin.
However, the detectives said, the man might not be the killer at all and the description that the woman gave of him -- and the car -- might have been wrong.
"Maybe she's right," Anger said. "But what it's going to take to solve this case is for someone to call in -- and that one right person will have the information we need."
Police are asking anyone with information to call 248-584-5755 anytime.
Contact FRANK WITSIL at 248-351-3690 or witsil@freepress.com.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 29, 2012 0:00:04 GMT -5
Note that this Document is sent to me 10 years after Johns first Polygraph in Alpena~ Wonder what Ray thinks now that he knows that John remained on Police Radar and still is,They even fly out to Ga,he also has taken three more Polygraphs and failed a Relevant Question on each one of the children's- Mark,Jill and Kris~and if they would have given him another one on Tim,to follow up on his Two in Alpena,I think you would have seen the same results~  |
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 30, 2012 0:35:08 GMT -5
Somebody knows theory-When your in law enforcement,you normally believe that no one ever commits a crime without at least one other person knowing about it-and according to the somebody knows theory all you have to do is look long and hard enough and talk to enough people and sooner or later you are going to find somebody who has that vital scrap of information to solve the crime-However if it is a family member who knows...well some times the rule of Blood is thicker than water -holds true...and they just won't give the Brother or son -up--They just hang onto that family secret...In the Occk cases-It maybe getting closer to being told *Note What happen and When to this concept? Where Police quit talking to witnesses and just talk to each other and then fill out a report???
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