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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 21, 2011 20:48:20 GMT -5
What are the odds that John and Busch lived so close ? Helen,The fact that the one strand of hair doesn't match John means nothing. I probably have strands of hair from co-workers on me right now. So what? To me the smoking gun is "What are the odds that John and Busch lived so close to one another? ". Absolutely astronomical odds to me. Anyone who thinks its a simple coincidence is nuts. Please keep me posted and keep up the great work. Dean
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 21, 2011 20:50:58 GMT -5
What would be the harm in taking one last definitive, objective look at John’s alibi(s)? He apparently had a passport showing he was out of the country during the time of one of the murders. Could he have killed three of the four kids and one of the cases not be related? Surely it was possible in the late 70’s to get a fake passport. How was the passport information checked out? Was the passport taken at face value? Did anyone check to see if the father (who may have had the same name) had been traveling during that time? Is it POSSIBLE that this John had a fake passport and could be the killer? I know LE must hate these types of websites, but really, wouldn’t it be possible for you to tell Helen how/why John was eliminated as a suspect in the past? The cases are 35 years old, will probably never be solved with 100% certainty, and there can’t be a lot of hot tips coming in. If John is not still a viable suspect, why not reveal how he was eliminated (at least to Helen)? I know there are a million arm-chair detectives out there and LE has had to deal with almost all of them in the OCCK case. However, while the child porn angle initially makes sense, it would mean more than one or two people were probably involved, making it that much more likely that someone would talk or slip up over the years. Of course if these cases were related to that industry, photographic evidence may exist, which is probably the only way to prove who killed these kids. But what if that’s not what happened? It may seem crazy to LE that a website like Helen’s exists, but these crimes affected many, many people—in hugely life-altering ways. Not only were the crimes unimaginable, but there were no answers. That’s why some of us ask if it is possible that the focus on the child porn industry, like the focus on the blue gremlin in 1977, is off-base? Again, no offense is intended to you or any LE. The OCCK case is unlike any other. But this is a decades-old case and surely no harm could come of either putting to rest once and for all the John theory, or admitting that it is possible it could have been someone like John or John himself, but it can’t be proven and that’s why you still have to look at other possible suspects. Xxxxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 21, 2011 20:53:58 GMT -5
This Paragraph-from Cathy "My dad left a message yesterday that Gray called him (yesterday morning) and told him they "interviewed a guy in Atlanta," that this guy may not have much more to offer but they have arranged to polygraph him (asap, but no date mentioned), and that they would take it from there". -My take on thingsHere's what I got from Cory when he called me -(this includes my spin on what he told me): 1. John drives some old limo for a living in Atlanta and has for quite some time. He couldn't explain why a guy with an education moved from family and friends in 1992 and ended up in Atlanta, other than "this is as far as my money took me" and "this is just where I ended up." 2. He showed up for the interview with some encyclopedia of serial killers, allegedly to demonstrate that he is simply fascinated by these types of crimes and to bolster his premise that he was only discussing this crime with me because of interest, not involvement.(What a piece of work.) 3. He said I "made up" the map drawing and that he never said what AW overheard that December day in the Big Boy. Cory pointed out that AW had absolutely no reason to lie, even told him there were other witnesses who observed the map drawing, etc. I think this was the point that Cory said John ran out of answers and started doing that trance thing. I just remember that Cory said at one point he did do that weird trance thing. While at other points John never denied saying anything, just said I was making things up, at during the map discussion I think Cory said he said the witnesses were wrong because he never said that stuff or wrote the maps. 4. The interview was 2 hours, conducted primarily by Cory, and became heated at times. 5. They are really glad he agreed to take the polygraph. Cory said it wouldn't surprise him either way--if he passed or failed. He says he thinks John has the biggest likelihood of failing the question of "are you withholding any info on this case?" 6. John said he does not keep in contact with his family--hasn't talked to Tom in ages; rarely talks with Mike. When asked why John didn't end up in Florida like some of the rest of his family, he had no response. 7. John is completely strange and bizarre and often did not make eye contact. 8. John said he never knew any Chris Busch; didn't have a friend who committed suicide or know anyone at that time who killed himself. That I was smart enough to do the research on Busch's date of death and that the fact that it was on the same day as my husband's suicide was just a coincidence. As I pointed out, this is a pretty d**n big coincidence, as is John's proximity to the Busch house, and Cory agreed. He said that's why they need a correctly-administered polygraph. 9. That he and Gray discussed the possibility that John was just feeding you the story to get a rise out of you and to get free meals and coffee. When Gray asked Cory why John didn't just sue you, Cory said "because that s.o.b. in fact said all of that stuff to Helen." At one point in the interview, John tried to say you were crazy and Cory stopped him and said he has spoken to you, you are not crazy and that many of the things you have said have checked out when Cory looked into it. So he said something along the lines of stop saying Helen is crazy, she isn't, and that doesn't answer my questions. 10. John denied ever receiving any mental health treatment, denied every staying at or being treated at the Ardmore Center Hospital (near Tim's drop off). 11. There must have been a lot more if they talked for two hours, but this was what I got out of the brief phone call. If I had to be a realist, what I am guessing is that they need a failed or inconclusive polygraph to justify continuing to investigate him. Cory mentioned nothing about interviewing other family members-beside Mike and Patty and simply said he had to report in to the Wayne County prosecuting attorney because Wayne County
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 21, 2011 20:58:45 GMT -5
FOIA papers~From an interview with Hastings March 17, 1992 2 p.m.:
John's name is redacted but it is very clear he is the subject of the interview.
[LE] DS: Obviously, you satisfied them that you were not the person. Nobody has talked to you since then?
JH: No body has talked to me since then, no, but [redacted]
DS: How did that interview go?
JH: It was really short. They just asked me some questions.
DS: What did they say?
JH: There asked me if I knew where I was on certain dates, you know. I didn't know, and the only thing I could tell them was that I was in Europe in the winter of '76.
DS: You were in Europe the winter of '76?
JH: Yep.
DS: Do you know the dates you were in Europe?
JH: January, February and part of March. I left here in January. I have a passport, I still have my passport from going there. It's kind of wrinkly, but I have a passport.
DS: Is it stamped?
JH: It's stamped in Luxenburg and Brussels, I believe.[ personal note: he remembers where he has stamps from after 15 years?]
DS:Do you know when the dates of those were?
JH: No. You mean stamped date?
DS: Yes. Do you have it where we could...how did you get here today?
JH: I walked.
DS:If we drove you back to your house, could you get it and show it to us?
JH: We'd have to drive to Ossinek to get it.
DS: so, it's not that far?
JH: It's 10 miles south of Alpena.
DS: ok, if we drove to Ossinek could you get it?
JH: Right
DS: Are you comfortable that those are the right dates...January, February, March of '77 was when you were there.
JH: right.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 22, 2011 16:27:38 GMT -5
For those who have never seen this-Message from the Chief of Police
Donald A Studt, Chief of Police
The Birmingham Police Department prides itself on providing high quality professional services and law enforcement to all who live, work and travel to the city.
The department has a long history dating back to 1864 when Alanson Partridge was appointed town marshal. The jail was located in the back room of the National Hotel and consisted of an iron pipe imbedded in the floor to which a prisoner or other ‘undesirable’ was handcuffed.
In 1921 the police department was a 3 man operation complete with 1 motorcycle and a Model T pick-up truck. The department moved into the “new” Municipal Building in 1928 and the operation remains there today. The central business first saw parking meters in 1948 when the department had 26 police officers.
Much has changed both in the city and in the police department over the years. With the growth of the city, police department operations have grow more complex. We are committed to utilizing the best and most advanced technology available.
What has not changed is the commitment of the women and men of the organization to providing the best possible service to the community. It is because of this dedication from all that the organization is well respected and the city remains a great place to be.
The primary goal of the Department is protection of life and property, prevention of crime and apprehension of criminal perpetrators. The Department strives to provide a safe and secure environment for the residents of the City and to those who work, travel and shop here. The mission statement of the Department is:
The Birmingham Police Department is committed to fairness, compassion, and excellence in providing services sensitive to the priorities and needs of the community: the protection of life and property, the apprehension of criminal perpetrators, and the prevention of crime in accordance with the law.
The chief of police is responsible for the operation of the Department. He accomplishes this with the assistance of the deputy chief of police, who also serves as an ex-officio member of the Traffic & Safety Board. This board addresses concerns expressed by neighborhood groups and presents traffic-calming measures to the city commission for approval.
The Department is divided into Patrol/Services and Investigative Divisions. The Patrol/Services Division is headed by a commander, who oversees three patrol shifts. Each patrol shift has a sergeant in charge. The Investigative Division is headed by a sergeant who reports to the deputy chief of police. These divisions are the primary means for responding to calls for service, crime prevention, enforcement of traffic laws, investigation of motor vehicle accidents and conducting criminal investigations.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 23, 2011 6:06:07 GMT -5
Nothing about the way the Occk cases have been handled makes sense ~ None of it! It has become such a cluster f*ck of epic proportions and that has caused it to lose focus on the point...........
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 24, 2011 0:54:58 GMT -5
Just a couple of things Chief Studt~ You need to find your copy of Johns passport-you do have a copy -Right? Because you never turned one over to the Task Force--Then there are all my and my daughters Occk Interview tapes-You do have those some where -Right?-as you never turned them over to the Task Force-Next -that alibi from the brother -really needs more work-Why? Because the Brother was not in Fla at the time he said John hitch there from New York-The brother did not leave Oakland County until-1978-I have those exact dates-So you shouldn't have any problem finding them-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 25, 2011 0:02:13 GMT -5
So Chief Studt-How are you going to make this right?-You know if this would have happen 10yrs ago-I wouldn't even ask-I would just haul your butt into court-however I am now to old and to tired -after working on the Oakland County Child Murder Cases-trying to protect my original story-only -I'm a little late to be able to do that now-because unknown to me -you had already distorted all my testimony -when 20 yrs ago you typed up your first report...Have you Google yourself lately?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 26, 2011 0:01:51 GMT -5
No, I never saw that Helen. I probably missed a lot of postings--for instance, I missed all of that stuff about "Les and Susan" and kdogg and all of that. I only checked it out because Judi mentioned this guy Kdogg cyberstalked her. I just assumed that the police looked into everything you provided and that it could not be proven to the degree necessary to file charges and therefore they could do no more. I have had no contact with the Task Force since Spring of 1977. Jack Kalbfleisch had the guts to give my Mom and my brothers and I a tour of the Task Force headquarters at that time. Although the guy was a complete professional, I could still feel the guy's pain at having to show us what they were doing.
Don kept my Dad informed over the years but my Dad was very careful about what he said about Tim's murder over the years in deference to my Mom, who was heartbroken and devastated by Tim's death. After my Mom died in Sept. '04, my Dad did that interview with the E! channel, although my brothers and I advised against it. We view the media as primarily exploitive. He said he would have never done it while my Mom was alive, but that he felt he should do it. HOWEVER, I think he will never do it again, and he will really only have a two-way conversation about anything relating to the OCCK with Don Studt. I think my Dad also tried to protect me over the years, especially when I was a new mom. It took every ounce of everything I had to put one foot in front of the other after March, 1977. It was basically sink or swim and no one was offering any life rafts. I assumed after a decade or so that the crimes would never be solved, that Don would tell us if there was anything solid, and that the thing would eat me alive if I kept the anger going. Truthfully, I never wanted to look at the person who killed Tim and those other kids and hear about how he was a "nice guy," "what a shocker," etc. I just begged the universe to have him stop killing. "Just let him stop killing" was my mantra. Later, when I had kids, I tried to focus instead on what a gift my kids are and to not take any day for granted. For most of the past 29 years I did no independent follow-up on Tim's case at all. I mean, let's face it, when these crimes don't get solved (especially since there were at least four crime scenes), a safe assumption is that something was missed and that there will never be an arrest.
In the very recent past, any conversations with my Dad about Tim's case are still brief and always end with "I send anyone who calls to Don Studt." This signifies the end of the conversation. I think that unless Don comes to him and says "we for sure have the person," he doesn't want to hear much about it. You can imagine what 29 years of living with this could do to a parent. Plus, I told you a bunch of nuts have showed up at his door over the years to "confess." We were at "ground zero" (and I called it this long, long before Sept. 11) and considered, I think, beyond help. People outside ground zero were (and still are) concerned for their kids' safety, but we were already casualties, so no one came very close (to ask questions or say much of anything). That's how I saw it.
Cathy
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 26, 2011 23:23:43 GMT -5
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 27, 2011 21:39:47 GMT -5
So Studt,I think I have it figured out-I kept asking myself-why-why?? would Don do this??--Well when I was talking to one of my LE buddies on the phone today-and asked him why? He said Helen,haven't you ever heard that arrogance can make you stupid? -That is it! Because there is no one I have ever met -that is more arrogant then you!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 30, 2011 19:16:27 GMT -5
STUDT ASKED DOES JOHN HAVE THE BOOK CATCHER IN THE RYE? I'm a year older than John. "The Catcher in the Rye" was required reading for my generation. And not required by any school curriculum. We cut our rebellious, anti-establishment teeth on Catcher in the Rye. That book was a rite-of-passage for us, an anthem to our baby-boomer teenage angst. It's right up there with the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction," as in, "I can't get no."--lol--Most of us read "Catcher" and ended up doing too much sex and drugs and rock n roll. Evidently, one read it, and became a serial killer. Not sure how much Catcher in the Rye had anything to do, with any of it. But, don't let me interrupt the interesting discussion. lol JJ
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Post by Helen Dagner on Aug 30, 2011 19:19:00 GMT -5
Facts we know:
John spent 9 months talking in depth about the OCCK killings. He gave you info never befor published. You saw things ( papers, books and a manicure kit) with interesting or odd subject matter as well as an unusual storage place for the manicure kit.
You had the BPD come down and investigate ( we won't discuss the quality of said invetsigation) and we know that John was poly'd at that time.
We know that he was questioned in 77 and 78.then in 91 and 2008
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