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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 10, 2014 4:24:34 GMT -5
Repost-Early this morning a thought jumped out at me about John. Remember I told you that soon after we started communicating in March of 2006 (and you told me John went to Brother Rice) I recalled a conversation I had had with my dad about a suspect who went to Rice? I was back home and it was obviously after 1992 because I had my son with me, who was born in 1992. He was still little and it was before 1995 when my daughter was born. My dad mentioned that the cops were looking at a suspect who had graduated from Rice a couple of years ahead of me--that he was not a whole lot older than me. My dad said Don had spoken with this suspect (obviously John) and that he was crazy and had been in and out of mental hospitals. My dad also said that the cops' attempts to get cooperation from the family concerning dates he/they were out of the country, etc. had not been successful. That the family was not helping--"that it was too long ago; they didn't remember," blah, blah, blah. I remember him mentioning something about that the dad and step-mom couldn't even say when they were on their honeymoon. I said "how can they NOT HELP?!" My dad just shook his head and shrugged his shoulders. Here's how I know he said the stuff about the mental hospital and being crazy (and this is what woke me up this morning): My dad then went on to say that he was thinking about filing a civil suit against this guy to force him to take the 5th amendment on the record. My response was that it seemed like a waste of time because if the guy is crazy it won't help to put him under oath; he will say whatever he wants, including possibly confessing to something he did not do. My mom was in the room and she agreed. Keep in mind that back then we all believed the cops were all over this thing and that if there was something there, they would get to the bottom of it. The next morning my mom asked me how I had slept and I said "I had nightmares last night because of that nuts dad told me." We never spoke about it again. I feel really guilty for talking him out of that civil suit--but god only knows if that would have done anything at the time. It would have outed John and his family back then, but maybe little more. So I believe John has been "in and out of" mental hospitals and that Don told my dad this. Yet when I called Don to discuss Hastings back in March of 2006 I asked "is John mentally ill?" Don immediately said no. I then said "He's not?!" and Don responded--well, maybe borderline. I then asked why he had not taken steps to get your site off of the internet or taken some action to stop you, and wasn't John mortified when he was questioned by police in 1992 based on your information. He said--no, not really--HE KIND OF LIKED THE ATTENTION. WTF? ? I told Cory this way back when. He said it is not that unusual for people to kind of get off on helping the police, etc.--you know the reaction I am talking about. To me that is not the same as "kind of liking the attention" when you are a d**n suspect. Redacted-Redacted -Redacted The main point of all of this is that my dad was under the impression, based on conversations with Don, that the Brother Rice suspect (John) was mentally ill and had been hospitalized a few times because of it. Now if the cops knew that, how come you are the crazy one?! You don't need a shrink to get the answer to that one.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 10, 2014 23:20:34 GMT -5
Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: Did any LE ever tell you John was not a suspect. Elijah,Detroit,Mi.WELL LET SEE~~IN 91 WHEN JOHN HAD THE 2 POLYGRAPH~ON THE FIRST PHONE CALL~DON STUDT TOLD ME~WELL WE HAVE TO GIVE HIM ANOTHER POLYGRAPH~~I SAID WELL DOES THAT MEAN JOHN IS NOT GUILTY~AND HE SAID NOT AT ALL,REMEMBER HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE ORIGINAL TASK FORCE~SO THAT'S A PLUS.~AFTER THE SECOND POLYGRAPH DON CALLED AND SAID HE IS NOT ARE MAN HELEN-HE PAST THE RELEVANT QUESTION-BUT AFTER THAT THEY STILL INTERVIEWED ME ONCE AGAIN & TAPED EVERYTHING AT THE BIRMINGHAM POLICE DEPT....AND ASKED ME IF I WOULD GO TO A GRAND JURY & IF I WOULD TAKE A POLYGRAPH~I SAID YES TO BOTH-BUT NOTHING EVER BECAME OF IT~~YOU CAN READ ALL OF THIS ON THE ORIGINAL-OAKLAND COUNTY CHILD SLAYING SITE www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Oakland_murders.html
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 10, 2014 23:24:10 GMT -5
Dec 2004
9:25 am Post subject: THEN I GOT A LETTER FROM DET.RAY ANGER~I THINK IN 2001~~THAT SAID~THERE IS NO LEGAL PROOF THAT YOUR FORMER FRIEND DID THESE CRIMES & HE DID PASS THE RELEVANT QUESTION.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 10, 2014 23:27:26 GMT -5
2006- THEN THREE WEEKS AGO WHEN I WAS INTERVIEWING DET.ROBERTSON ON THE PHONE~~I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW IT CAME UP~~BUT I GUESS HE WAS ANSWERING A QUESTION OF MINE~AND HE SAID ~OH I THINK WE RULED HIM OUT~~I SAID WHAT??~YOU BETTER TALK TO GRAY THEN~AS THAT IS NOT WHAT HE IS LEADING ME TO BELIEVE ~ROBERTSON WAS TRULY SHAKEN BY MY ANSWER~~BUT I DIDN'T DISCUSS IT ANY FURTHER~~AS I HAD JUST TALKED TO GRAY A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE THAT & HE SAID~OH YES,JOHNS FILE IS RIGHT ON TOP OF THE FILING CABINET..SO IT MAY HAVE SOME DUST ON~~AND WE BOTH LAUGH~~
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 10, 2014 23:32:04 GMT -5
Mar 21, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: AND THAT IS THE SUM TOTAL OF COMMENTS MADE TO ME ABOUT JOHN NOT BEING A SUSPECT~~~IN NEARLY 23 YEARS~~AND I HAVE TALKED TO COPS AND OTHER LE~~DAILY ALL DURING THIS TIME~~~ Note: The Investigation of John has never stopped since 1977.....and what I learned on Thanksgiving Day 2013,will explain WHY!
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 12, 2014 4:35:21 GMT -5
Don Studt (from) Interview with John 1992 ----- -DS We've been talking about this case for 2 hours. Never once did you say you didn't do it.
BLK 01702
i didn't do it. I told Helen that one night. I said "listen, I'm not the guy. You're either going to believe me or not."
DS I'm not going to tell you that we've known one of those kids for a long time. Why should believe that you didn't kill him?
Why should you beleive that I did do it?
DS You were in the area at the time. You may or may not have been Europe for a couple of months in '76 that we;re concerned with. I ;m real interested to see the passport. Very interested to see the passport.
Ok
DS You were in Europe at the time. You weren't working, you were working weekends, maybe, but were unable to verify that. You stayed with your mother and there was a house next door that your family owned that may or may not have been vacant for a period of time. You could pretty much come and go as you please. There is some indication that there were a couple of vibrator incidence, whether of not thats important or significant, or true. They're out there yet to be resolved. You're a smart guy, you're quiet, intelligent, a soft spoken guy. I don;t think you'd have any trouble relating to kids. Whether or not that would be for a positive purpose of not,I don't really know. But, thats a few reasons.
EPO And somebody thought you were suspicious to start out.
Who's that?
DS Back in 1977.....
BLK 01703
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 12, 2014 23:43:51 GMT -5
Many of you have emailed about Don's statement in the above post "There is some indication that there were a couple of vibrator incidence, whether of not thats important or significant, or true. They're out there yet to be resolved."-- ##I have no problem answering this,I could do it from memory, but, because this is such and important part of these cases,and there are some people connected with these cases who wrongly believe that the boys were flesh to flesh abused repeatedly,it is important for me to have anything I say on this matter...credit to it's source-so later-
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 14, 2014 19:43:14 GMT -5
Helen,I don’t believe there was any “conspiracy” or “cover up”, in fact, I’ll go one further, I think the families are opening themselves to lawsuits for slander. People can say whatever they want to about L. Brooks Patterson, but a guy who’s guilty or knows differently, doesn’t come up with transportation to fly to WY and exhume a dead guy for DNA.
That task force was too big, too many Officers involved. There is no way in hell that someone could cover up a killer, even if it was someone high up like Krease./ Sgt.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 14, 2014 20:42:55 GMT -5
Mybrotherskeeper wrote: It seems that every time I read the documents provided in the FOIA case against the MSP, there is more and more to look carefully at. Supplemental incident report dated December 21, 2009: 12-18-09, D/Sgt. Gray: Left a voice mail for [John Hastings--this is redacted, but come on, this isn't brain surgery] at 1:15 p.m. Asked for the undersigned to call on Monday 12-21-09, at his convenience. Call to Steve Duncan, Georgia Highway Patrol polygraph-er who examined [John Hastings]. Has not heard back from [John] since his tx regarding reading the book given to him by Dagner, Wolf in Sheep's clothing. [John] advised that he had recently changed jobs, however he's still working as a limo driver in the greater Atlanta , Georgia area. John [NOT REDACTED, thank you very much] was advised that it has been a long time since we've spoken and haven't spoken since [redacted for a few lines].[John] did qualify this statement by saying he read the book that was given to him by Helen Dagner, "Wolf in Sheeps Clothing," [redacted, redacted][John] stated "I don't know how it came to this point because I had nothing to do with this case at all." [John] mumbled throughout the conversations, but this seems to be his speaking style.[John] adamantly denied any involvement with the case and added it may have been from his numerous contacts with Helen Dagner and his fixation with this investigation. Due to not wanting to upset [John] by questioning him further in an accusatory manner, AND AFTER REALIZING STEVE DUNCAN'S POLYGRAPH WITH HIM AND HIS WALKING OUT OF THE EXAM VERY UPSET [emphasis added], the undersigned decided not to attack him further but to soften the process." Det. Gray
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 17, 2014 20:03:45 GMT -5
The usual motives do not apply in these most unusual abduction-murder cases,then what does fit? So far only the one offered by John.He said, he kidnapped & killed the children to show the rich upper class of the community that they were no better than he was,and that they were as vulnerable as he was to the cruelties & Injustices of life & society.He claims his motive was to strike a blow to the privileged rich snobs & since he couldn't do anything to bring them down financially or materially,he could still get them through their children & teach them the lesson they so sorely needed,and he so dearly wanted to teach them. It was nothing sexual,nor was there any personal,animosity toward the Kids. In fact he so liked and respected kids that he clean them up so they were presentable and were in no way made to look degraded. If as he said his aim was to shake-up higher society,he certainly succeeded,everyone regardless of wealth or status was very shaken up. Also,as perhaps and unintended bonus,he went from being (He felt),snubbed,slighted and considered insignificant to being almost instantly catapulted to the very height of importance. Now,he was the one that matter,compared to him all others paled to insignificance....He was the one everyone was talking about and thinking about above everyone, from the Mayor & the Chief of Police--To the Bankers & The Judge....It was his presence that dominated--The TV, the Newspapers & Radio News-It was his Dark & unseen shadow that cast fear in the hearts of all--With seemingly almost supernatural ability and cunning ,he was snatching kids off the street in broad daylight...right out from under the cops and everyone else s noses. In the press and in the minds of citizens he took on near mystical proportions...like a reincarnated Jack The Ripper,he held and entire community in the grip of fear that was almost panic...talk about salve for a wounded Ego,the high he got from the sense of power must have been absolutely intoxicating,possibly causing him to commit more killings then he had originally intended to .In any event he sure brought the rich to their knees,He Symbolically subjugated the snobbish upper class,all of which is the only motive I have heard that really fits the nature and details of this series of terrible crimes....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 20, 2014 18:06:53 GMT -5
This is a letter I sent to Jerry Tobias following a phone conversation that we had a few months before he passed. He had wanted me to explain Johns motive to him,as he just couldn't wrap his mind a round why John would take kids who's parents weren't wealthy,in order to get back at a rich society, who John felt had done him and injustice-Dear Jerry, I understand your question on why John would kill children of non-Wealthy parents if he had a personal vendetta against the "Wealthy and Privileged Upper Class" who he thought snubbed him at every turn. John came from what all accounts, was a seething pressure cooker of mental abnormalities. His mom was, unfortunately, severely disturbed. Unsympathetic and cold father figure. Elevated family expectations, shamefully unfulfilled. College drop out (another failure), recently dumped by his girlfriend (frustrated libido) and etc. So as you can see, John had a lot to get even with privileged society for. However, during all of this, John's personal experience was with people who were for the most part, not rich, but ranged from the solidly Upper Middle Class to the well off. John did not rub up against the fabulously Rich on a daily basis. He did not expect to be welcomed as an equal by the really Rich. No, his beef was with those who genuinely occupied the social rung (Upper middle Class) he felt himself to be deserving of. Thwarted, humiliated, forced to be an imposter, feeling inferior, a phony... So, he struck out at the social structure (and the geographical area) he had the emotional investment in, which is the Upper Middle Class, in that area, which made up the texture of his day to day life. Furthermore, all of this emotional drama was being played out on the faulty psychological foundation of the troubled family home situation rife with mental and emotional dysfunction. These psycho-pathological underpinnings erected in early life by John as necessary defense mechanism expressed themselves in the symbolic destruction of his own family (Thus two boys and two girls). At that point, it was mission accomplished. John had no reason to kill anyone else. My Best Regards, Helen
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Post by Helen Dagner on Feb 25, 2014 2:05:40 GMT -5
Helen, My friend told me tonight that John admitted cooking the chicken for Tim,is that true? Matt- NOTE: Well the first time I met John and we went for coffee with the mother of his child,we were just sitting there and he blurted out,I cooked the chicken! we all just looked at each other,because we sure were not talking about chicken at the time-then a cook at Biffs said he came right out and asked John if he cooked the Chicken for the King boy and there were other people a round back in 1977 and he just glared at the cook and wouldn't answer him,but the cook said he knew John had-then in 1992 after his Freudian slip at the restaurant,that evening he was talking that he had put a chicken bone in Tims pocket when he dropped him off as he wanted the Mother to know he had been fed his favorite meal -but he had seen a cat siting on Tim at the drop off and he felt that the Cat had taken the chicken bone-then I got an email from Cathy and she said yes,there had been Cat hair on Tim and it was from a different cat then the Kings-I know Don Studt asked him about cooking the chicken as it was in the FOIA papers,that I read 20 years after our conversation. Also of note is that this chicken bone caused a big uproar at the Michigan State Police-when a trooper mistakenly sent me and email that he was sending around with a joke in-that stated should we just go out and shot her ,chicken bone and all?- Those Legal papers are on the site,with and apology from the State Police,that stated the Trooper was wrong in doing this and has admitted it and that he didn't mean to threaten my life...
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