-Hogwash-Balderdash-Malarkey

[Helen Dagner]

This is a post by Terri from Topix-and in a rare moment of temporary sanity -she actually made a little sense,wherein she recognized that there was a Big cast of bad guys and perverts running around but there was no evidence that any of them were connected to each other or these cases-However the statement about the Kings thinking that Busch killed victim #2 and # 4 but Not #1 and #3-Is absurd-How would killer B know what killer A was doing in order to copy cat-these murders-Even the cops didn't know that the first killing was a serial...Busch looked like Rasputin the mad monk,he drank to excess-did drugs and one of the things that is known he was a stinky slob with bad personal care habits-he did not have the mental ability to orchestrate and execute these murders-also he was not taking any children to his parents home to sexually abuse them-that is rumor that has been blown out of proportion-and not to mention he didn't have a hidden Manicure kit...Did He?--And why would he choose to take one girl...Busch,didn't do girls ,PERIOD!

"Lilly's book ?? No need to worry about disagreeing.
It's all a little mixed up and confusing ?
But, she writes it in sort of a "Her point of view" manner and has said that.

Some of the facts are off ??
Even in my own story ? But, her intent in all of it was good. She didn't write it to make any real money. I think when she heard why her boyfriend was killed...then saw Lawson and Lamborgine on tv...it set things in motion. She did a d**n good job tying certain things together. But, it's all speculation. I know that.
My mind still thinks that maybe all of these men weren't connected ? We don't know ? That's what LE is suppose to be doing ? Are they ?
I can picture some of the Cass men being involved or the Fox Island guys being involved ? But, maybe not connect them ?? I don't have a clue if they really connect ?
I think Busch was involved in at least Timmy's and Jill's murders based on what the King's now know.
It's pretty clear he was murdered ?
It's very clear McKinney was tortured and killed. Why ? I want to know why McKinney was tortured ?? A simply robbery wouldn't have gone down that way ? McKinney did know Mrs. King. He knew the Coffey's ??
So, I'm thinking....IMO....the Cass guys weren't involved. But, I'm waiting for LE is prove these theories right or wrong and not based on DNA evidence. "

[Helen Dagner]

About the Video's--We are just making a Permanent Record of what we know-so if all else fails-some sharp detective...down the line...say 30 years from now...can pick up the info -and go with his new set of eyes..there has to be a starting point-you just can not rely on old newspapers for ever-and most police reports do not cover the true story when it comes to the Occk cases...

[Helen Dagner]

That is all just a rumor Bill- and certainly no truth to it----Chris Busch passed his polygraph...and no you can not go over a 35 yr old polygraph...and say I believe he should have failed it!

[Helen Dagner]

It was January in San Diego. But on this day in 2005, in a little room inside the U.S. probation office, things were heating up.
(Note: Some day I hope to post the real story on this...).
Sergeant Cory Williams of the Livonia, Michigan police department had arrived to add a big notch to his belt. He'd cracked a 16-year-old robbery-homicide case that left a Detroit cab-company owner dead. Some mope in prison had finally decided to rat. Now Williams was staring into the face of the killer: a former smuggler of illegal aliens named Richard Lawson, alias "Coyote Negro."

But in the course of his investigation, Williams had turned up another interesting tidbit about Lawson -- a statement he'd given to Pennsylvania cops in 1989 after being arrested on another robbery. What he'd said hadn't made any sense to the guys out there, but to Williams, it jumped off the page: "I know who did the Michigan Snow Killings."

It'd be in Lawson's best interest, Williams told him, if he started talking -- and quick.

Lawson's story began in the 1970s in Detroit's Cass Corridor, a six-block section of dope dealers, hookers, bars, and poverty. Big families had moved from the South to work the auto plants. Hundreds of kids ran wild in the streets. It was a pedophile's paradise.

Lawson and his four buddies, one of whom he'd later identify for Williams as "Ted Orr," had a good thing going, as long as everyone played by the rules. Those poor kids from the neighborhood had nothing. So the men put money in their pockets and food in their bellies. In some cases the men even helped the mothers out, taking care of those gas bills to get families through the cold northern winters.

But they were also businessmen. They wanted something in return.

Back at their homes, in motel rooms, and in the greasy basement of a neighborhood bike shop, the men used the boys -- some as young as nine -- to enact their darkest fantasies.

They tried not to be too rough. After all, they wanted the boys to come back the next time they cruised up with a crisp 10-spot. And so the boys came back, some of them for years. Sometimes, though, Ted got a little carried away.

Back then, he wore a luxurious pompadour wig made of real human hair. On special occasions he'd bring kids from the hood up to mossy suburbs like Royal Oak for "parties" at other pedophiles' homes. Police suspect there may have been hundreds of men involved, networking like members of a book club. The parties were potluck orgies: Everyone brought a kid to share, and things were known to get wild. Kids were sodomized, photographed, then thrown in a bathtub and hosed off.

Then there was the time Ted scared even Lawson. They were at the apartment of Bob Moore, owner of the bike shop, when Ted whipped out a photo album Moore kept of their little sweethearts. Ted pointed to one picture of a little boy with a wing-cut and a cute, dimpled chin. The kid wasn't one of the Cass hood-rats the men usually settled for. This was a kid from the other side of 8 Mile Road, the dividing line between the dust and crumble of the city and the bird's nest of suburbs in northern Detroit. This kid was clean and had nice clothes. "Looks like the King boy, doesn't it?" Ted had said, winking. Lawson never forgot the moment.

Police hadn't seriously considered the possibility of multiple killers. "The original theories were always a single adult male, professional, 25 to 35, and could have been a priest or a policeman 'cause he'd lure them to the car," says Sergeant Williams.

But after hearing Lawson's story, investigators suspected that Ted, Bob Moore, and maybe others worked as a pack, watching each other's backs, making sure no kid wiggled free or screamed for help -- the perfect kidnapping and killing machine.

Williams left San Diego on a mission: Find Ted Orr and Bob Moore.

Bob Moore would be easy. Karma had already found him. In 1996, he went into cardiac arrest in his home. His pit bulls devoured his carcass before the body was discovered.

Ted Orr, meanwhile, was another story. The best Lawson could remember was that his real name started with "Lam." On a hunch, Williams dug up the old tip file from the '70s. And there he was, lost among the hundreds of dead leads: Ted Lamborgine.

Williams enlisted the help of Parma Heights cops to trail him for a few weeks, feel him out before confronting him. When they were ready, Mockler would do a simple traffic stop on Ted and ask him to come to the station, where Williams would be waiting.

Taking Ted into custody was surprisingly easy. He acted like a man with no secrets.

But the biggest surprise came in the interrogation room. Lawson was telling the truth, Ted said. He had been a pedophile. But he was no killer, he told Williams. On that point, he even agreed to take a polygraph in Michigan.

Williams held his breath. In the past 30 years, he'd seen cops come close to catching the Babysitter before, only to find out they were chasing their own tails. Once, detectives even dug up a dead man after relatives discovered a crucifix necklace etched with the name Kristine in his belongings. They checked his bones against a hair found on Timothy King's body, but it didn't match. Nothing told Williams this would be any different.

Until they got the polygraph results back. Ted bombed the test so badly that Williams was stunned.

"It was very conclusive," he says.

Still, police couldn't arrest Ted based purely on the lie detector. They let Ted return to Cleveland.

Yet home wasn't the same safe place anymore. The polygraph results had been leaked to Detroit TV stations. As Ted was leaving work late one January night in 2006, a camera crew was waiting for him. A reporter followed Ted as he walked to his truck, stuck a microphone in his face, and asked why he'd failed the polygraph. Had he killed those poor children?

Ted was speechless, dazed, jiggling the door handle of a car before realizing it wasn't his. He uttered only one word to the reporter: "scared."

When he finally reached the safety of his Ford, he slumped behind the wheel, sitting there for almost five minutes before finally driving off. Soon after, he walked into work and announced his retirement.

Even church, once such a warm place -- pine ceilings, worn red Bibles, and the most beautiful organ music -- was poisoned. Ted's pastor had been questioned by Michigan cops.

Ted disappeared from the pews. "I can't face those people," he told Parma Heights Detective Steve Scharschmidt.

Scharschmidt and his partner, Sergeant Mockler, took to stopping by Ted's apartment unannounced, with the kind of care they'd show if they were checking on an old lady. Ted would open the door in his bathrobe and boxers, invite the men in like sons, and offer to take them out for dinner. They would sit around a pot of coffee and talk about sports, politics, or their favorite restaurants. "He is genuinely a nice guy," says Mockler.

While the cops in Michigan were busy tracking down Ted's victims -- one broken, drug-addicted life after another -- Mockler and Scharschmidt were supposed to coax a murder confession.

In between the guy talk, they'd remind him of the kids from Cass, show him names of the children he'd raped to jog his memory. Ted didn't need a refresher. He remembered every little detail -- nicknames, what he'd made them do -- as if he'd been replaying it in his mind ever since.

Sometimes he'd seem close to cracking. Then the cops could almost see the wheels reverse in his head. They worried he might decide to take his secret to an early grave. One day close to Christmas 2006, Scharschmidt asked Ted if he'd thought about ending it all. Sure, Ted replied. "I just don't have the guts."

Nearly a year later, Michigan police were finished waiting. They decided to go with Plan B. Ted was getting off an RTA bus downtown when Mockler and Scharschmidt pulled up. They weren't here to chitchat this time. Ted was under arrest for raping eight children. But they didn't even bother cuffing the old man.

"Maybe God has a plan," Ted said from the back of the squad car.

Judgment day.

After sitting in the Wayne County jail for 135 days, prisoner Ted Lamborgine, a quiet old pedophile in green prison fatigues and jar-bottom glasses, is led in handcuffs to greet a throng of cameramen, reporters, and policemen in the courtroom of Judge Annette Berry.

Justice at today's sentencing for the rapes of those eight children won't be as poetic as it was for Bob Moore. But one look at the meek, slouching man standing here suggests that his new friends in the Michigan correctional system will be drooling just like those pit bulls.

Ted isn't here on murder charges, but he might as well be. He turned down Prosecutor Kym Worthy's offer to take another polygraph in regard to the killings in exchange for a maximum 15-year sentence on the rapes. Instead, Ted pleaded guilty to all the sex charges, guaranteeing multiple life sentences. Not exactly the actions of a man wrongly accused.

"Guess what they do to people like you in prison?" Judge Berry says, glaring down at him from the bench. She lets the question hang there for a few seconds, as the crowd waits to see Ted's Adam's apple bounce. But not a silver hair on his body moves.

Judge Berry motions to two haggard-looking men. They're Ted's victims, the traces that he left behind.

The dirty basements and crusty motel rooms where Ted heaved his body upon them are now empty lots covered in weeds and broken glass. But the memory of what the man in the bad wig did to them is as fresh as the recollection of his stink on their clothes.

One man with a broom mustache and a flannel jacket rolls his wheelchair to the front of the courtroom. His foot is bent at a 90-degree angle from being hit by a bus. He's been to prison and had a long relationship with the needle.

The man isn't here to recount gory details. He's had every night of his life to think about that. He's not much of a public speaker anyway. Instead, he simply pulls his arm out of his jacket and holds it up for the court. The man's biceps are as shriveled as a piece of beef jerky, pickled by heroin. "Give him what they can give him," the man mumbles. "I can't do nothin' about it."

In a moment, Judge Berry will render her sentence: three life terms. But first the prosecutor reads a chilling letter from another victim. The writer was nine years old when Ted kept him captive at a home somewhere, forcing him to have sex. Afterward, Ted would feed him, just as he had those four murdered children. Now the man wonders why he was let go.

"I know the monster that is hiding inside you," he writes to Ted. "I have seen him myself....

[Helen Dagner]

1. Some cops are going under the bus this time, and there will be tire treads on their backs. They won't be on their feet. I know I keep saying things like this, but I will see to it that this happens (as it should). But I don't want to run over anyone who doesn't deserve it (although that number will be very small). Strange as it sounds, my outside date for any necessary blow out is August--when I turn 50. I was 17 when this happened, for god's sake. I know that sounds like an arbitrary date, but that's currently where I am at as far as the nuts hitting the fan. If it hits before then, well so much the better. So the short answer is that I won't be the only person getting a colonoscopy in August--although mine will be conducted under sedation. If there is nothing by then, I will start detailing this sad saga from my perspective--and in great detail--on helendagner. com. I don't care who hates me, who is offended, or who I lose contact with forever. I still don't know how you have hung in there for 17 years. The thought of having my mind blown by this nuts for only 3 years is enough to make me get on my hands and knees and puke.

I feel like if they looked at Busch, they HAVE to look again at John and his family. The alibis--all of that nuts. You just can't look at a map showing their houses and come to any other conclusion than that John has to be put under the microscope. It's not like they both lived in Detroit--or in adjoining suburbs. They lived in Bloomfield Village, A ONE-SQUARE MILE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT IS DISTINCTIVE FOR ITS AFFLUENCE. Two suspects coming out of that little enclave?? A couple of streets apart. Give me a break.

I do get sickening feelings that even in light of this, the police will not put a full effort into reevaluating John just because they don't want to give you the satisfaction of having been right. That if it could be pinned on others, John will still stay under the radar screen because of ego issues, etc. Three years ago I would have said "no way" that goes on. Now I will be surprised if it doesn't go down this way. They still don't get that it will be worse if they don't face facts, apologize and get the f---king job done right.

2. F--k, I hate getting the snow job. It's worse than being told to f---k off.

3. Hasn't left town--that bums me out big time.

4. You're right, how could they rule anyone out?!

5. This sh--- moves at the speed of glaciers. I've never seen anything quite like it. Cxxxx

[Helen Dagner]

Danto. Here are some observations based on a July 3, 1977 article about him in The Detroit News Sunday Magazine, as well as some hearsay (which I believe to be reliable and accurate). First of all, if I had to bet money, I would say that Danto was treating Chris Busch. Maybe John. Or, maybe a close family member of one of them. I can't imagine he would be involved in the actual crimes, but stranger things have happened I guess. As a psychiatrist, his knowledge of any crimes gained from a client would be protected by the doctor-patient privilege. Maybe he figured the next best thing was to reach out to his killer/client to get him to come forward by putting himself out there as participating in the investigation. Back then there were no requirements that a teacher, counselor, social worker, shrink, doctor, reveal to authorities the name of any person who they became aware sexually molested/raped a child and was an ongoing threat to society (which they all are, because they cannot stop themselves). So maybe he thinks he can get the killer to come forward if he communicates with him.

On the other hand, prior to these murders, Danto, a paid member of the staff at the Detroit Psychiatric Institute, had developed a fascination with the mind of violent criminals. According to the article, he had already authored six books and 44 articles dealing with forensic psychology. As of July 1977, he was close to completing the course at the Macomb County Police Academy. He claimed at that point to have interviewed more than 2,000 murderers, as well testified at trials regarding the mental state of defendants. Maybe the guy just thought he could help. He became well-known (if not well-respected) for his work in the OCCK investigation.

The blue van--I take it this is related to Jane's murder? Danto had a son who was 16 or so at the time. Again, not saying he was involved, but he could have had access to the van to lend it to someone.

The article describes Ferndale police as having asked Danto to come speak to a group of policemen from all of the surrounding cities, as well as medical examiners, after Mark Stebbin's murder. The article describes Ferndale PD Det. Lt. Patrick Sullivan as having asked Danto to speak to the group. No comments appear from Det. Sullivan. I understand that at this meeting, Danto described Mark's death as the work of a serial killer. He thought the killer's other victims included Jane Allen, Cynthia Cadieux and Sheila Shrock. We now know that the Cadieux and Shrock murders were solved and were committed by someone other than the OCCK. At this point I don't think any of the LE were thinking Mark's murder was the work of a serial killer. Because Jane Allen was thought to have been the victim of a motorcycle gang, I'm sure no one was thinking Jane and Mark's deaths were in any way related.
So how in the hell does Danto come off saying Mark's murder is the work of a serial killer? Just a good guess based on all of his training?

People who interject themselves into these types of crimes are always viewed, at least for a time, with suspicion. I wonder how he established that his participation was in good faith.

The article describes the oft-repeated profile of the killer he offered at that meeting: the killer was re-enacting something that happened to him as a child; "possibly he was taken (or separated) from his family as a child, perhaps because his mother and father failed as parents, and by holding the children for days and even weeks he was replacing the victim's real parents--and trying to do a better job than they." By having sex with the children, the killer was possibly repeating what was done to him as a child, at home or in an institution. Danto is quoted as saying "We now know that sodomy is not uncommon in orphanages and foster homes. It may have happened to the killer." Further, the children were killed to spare them the sort of life the killer had led, as well as "to heap the ultimate humiliation on the ultimate wrongdoer," the children's parents, as a way to get back at his own parents.

The manikin deal. The article says this was proposed by Danto as a way to shock the killer into doing something that would draw attention to himself so he could be identified and arrested. Mark's funeral was open and funeral cards were distributed at the church and funeral home. A few days later one of these cards was found at the spot where Mark's body was found. Danto and many police believed a killer often returns to the scene of the crime and on the assumption that the killer left the card, "a capture plan was contrived by Danto." The article says: "A child-sized manikin was dressed in clothes just like Mark's. It was laid in exactly the spot where Mark's body was found, laid there with exactly the care Danto thinks the killer took." So, Danto proposed this deal and the cops went for it.

About Squirrel Road, Danto says he "studied the street maps, looking for a north-south road with a name that I might use as stimulation. An east-west road would have too many escape routes, and we didn't want to have him slip away if we got close to him. I hit on Squirrel Road. It's north and south. And it, years ago, was a favorite dumping ground for bodies."

So for my money, the guy was treating the killer or a close family member of the killer, but he certainly could have just wanted to assist using his general expertise. Maybe it was just so unheard of at the time to have a guy like Danto around a murder investigation that it just added a extra layer of suspicion on the guy. His ego and fame certainly benefitted, even if the crime remained unsolved.