Karol Robinson complains about their LE contact

[Helen Dagner]

There are so many things in the Search Warrant,that just are not true and of course the judge wouldn't know that,they don't know everything about these cases-so because he was the Head of the Task Force at the time-he could get away with saying anything-however if he had to fabricate his info,that falls right in with every one else s work on this case- He states that Busch had a Welsh Terrier and a light Tan color dog at the time-I ask you-who would care-The animal hairs have never been processed,and were assumed to be dog hair-when in fact-the majority of the ones on the children were Cat hair...at least the ones that are important to this case ( sorry to leave that hold back info -out of the bag) Next the Ropes in the bed room,he said they had a dark stain and are of the type believe to have been used to bind the children-Oh please you and I know the children -were not bound...the marks on there ankle and wrist were from wearing there jacket and socks for such a long time (sorry to let that hold back info out) You should of known at the time you were writing the affidavit,that it was motor oil on the ropes and not blood,and those ropes were so long-if they had not been used for a boat anchor -there only other purpose would of been to use for a cloths line. (sorry to let that hold back info out) and the color of the carpet in the room appeared to be similar to the color of the fibers recovered from the children-they were the only carpet samples -that absolutely didn't match (sorry to leave that hold back info out) Fibers removed from sock and Blanket of Jill -How interesting is that? Tobias called me four times asking me if I knew were Jills blanket was and that was in 1999-So was the blanket lost? and if so for How long? or is that just a little extra fill? Did you ever have the Blanket??? Oh yes,I want to mention it was not 3:30 when Mark left the AL Hall-it was 12:25,but don't take my word for it,listen to the # 1 video on are site,In her own words Marks Mom will tell you- That may not seem important to a lot of people-but it is one of the reasons that you have no witness who can tell you if they saw anything-if your riding down the street at 12:30-and you keep reading the wrong times in the newspaper-well you just wouldn't be able to recall -because you were not out driving at 3:30--ya think?

[Helen Dagner]

Mark,I feel sure that more people then you do not understand why Jessica Cooper made this statement in the story about Cathy-* Cooper said"“It has to be followed with a level of objectivity. I know the media loves to talk about this because it is an unsolved mystery. I know that Mr. King has been the center of media attention for a long time, but this blogging and this disrespect for people that have worked so hard for them, it’s time to stop ... and let the professionals do what they seek to do.”* Plain and simple-from her point of view, it would appear that the blogging is un justified-because she would not have any knowledge of what has been going on behind the scene, these investigators are not telling her this ,because,they do not have to*,LE are the ones who do the actual investigating,they do not go to her unless they have something to present,like for a search warrant,and want her advice on if their request will hold up-ect. ect.-*Trust me,none of them are going to her and saying,we mislead the families today (because we can) and they are not telling her,how they mislead the people who give them tips-we all have inside sources,and they all have told us different story's-How else would they be able to call us all crazy? I'm sure Cathy feels the same as I do-Enough is Enough!!!It has nothing to do with " disrespect for people that have worked so hard" because the fact is...not everyone who worked on these cases ever gave it their all-and they are giving less and less as time goes on- I can not speak for Cathy,*but I respect the people who have worked on this case,but not for the work they have done on the Oakland County Child Murder Cases of 1976-77-I respect them for work they have done on other cases...and they did a good job-I also respect them for being the person that they are but I'm not the type of person who can give them a blank check because of the respect I have for them on everything they do-The fact is,they haven't done a good job on the Occk cases,they have been just chasing their tails,using the same old reports -that they know full well are in error-and if those reports were un able to solve these cases for 36 yrs...where is the hope?

[Helen Dagner]

cloakdagner.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=updates&action=display&thread=1060 On The Radar For 36 yrs (Read 1,459 times)

[Helen Dagner]

This letter was sent on 2-15-03.

___________________________________________________________________

Dear Senators,

The Oakland County Michigan Child Killer:

www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Oakland_murders.html

When Helen Dagner once again tried to tell her story to Lt Edwards......she was being
laughed at behind her back.

As her e-mail circulated in which she made reference to a "chicken bone" placed in the
pocket of one of the victims by the killer........the officials had a laugh.

One official, Sandy McMillan, made this comment in an e-mail....

"Would you like me to just go out and shoot her...........chicken bone and all."

But the joke was on HIM as instead of forwarding the e-mail....he sent it BACK to Helen!

We know it was a harmless joke.....though this isn't something that should be joked
about.
But if the shoe was on the other foot and Helen had made the comment.....she would likely
be in jail as a result of such an error.

From what we hear through the grapevine.....higher officials are looking into that
situation....so as a gesture of goodwill and only wanting to see justice in this
case.....we removed the e-mail for the time being. Hard to place sole blame of the
officer that sent her the e-mail as the original was sent to a superior of his.....and
one has to wonder how it got to the joke point. No personal ill will was intended for the
officer in question. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time...and got caught.
He did send Helen a very short note apologizing.

Has the state police been under investigation for abuse and mis-use of internet &
E-mail??

The case as a whole.......I know it is hard to blame an individual.....or even a group. I
am sure all would like to see justice prevail obviously.

One statement from officials about the case :

"There is a new public push to gather and analyze tips and evidence," said Oakland County
Sheriff's Lt. Mark Newman. "We still haven't forgot about the victims and everyone wants
these cases solved."

Could it be the web-site and the e-mails we have been sending out over the past 2
years??
Never a reply until we wrote to the state Senators...

Even the story there are 12 suspect has been disputed.......accordong to the Daily
Tribune on February 5th.....State Police Detective Lt. Ive Edwards and other
investigators DENIED reports that they have roughly a dozen suspects that they expect to
narrow down to ONE in the coming months.

Whether Helen has a valid tip or not..."John" might or might not be the ONE...that's for
the officials to decide.....but I would like to see someone credible take her in and get
the whole story from her. They have yet to do that. Some have contacted her vowing to get
the whole story...yet none have ever followed through.

And no one can answer the question about the Federal agent and the county prosecutor...as
outlined here:

www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Senate.html

Obviously I would like to see these issues resolved. Hard to blame offficers who's hands
may be tied. Politics don't mean anything when children have DIED. So.....I want this to
be an issue that will NOT just go away. After 25 years....it is time for
resolution....and efforts must continue.
I intially wanted to support officials in any way possible. Still do. I think the ball is
finally rolling.....and I would like to see it keep rolling. Not only on this case but
many others that have gone stale. Maybe sometimes things need a "push".

Why do I want to help Helen?? I've been in the same boat myself......but I had the last
laugh....

Courttv.com/news/hiddentraces/boyinthebox/tent_girl.html

It doesn't matter to me whether her "John" is the killer or not as long as every thing is
being followed up on. Her John I hear has been cleared 4 times....how do we know the last
time is any more stable than the first 3 times??

Now that they ARE going to do an intense look at the case.....will they take Helen
serious enough to review her data once again?? In a serious and thorough fashion??

Imagine the pain of a murdered or missing child! I cannot imagine any greater horror.
Until the person who did this is OFF the streets.....he is someone's
neighbor.....somewhere....what if he's your neighbor??

More info is on the web-site.....and Helen has even MORE data.

One thing never mentioned on the web-site..........Helen's daughter a Detective Sgt. of a
Michigan Sheriff's Department and her son-in-law is also a police officer in Michigan,
now if Helen was way off base with all of this....wouldn't it be likely that they would
have stopped her by now??

1976-77 Oakland County Child Slayings

[Helen Dagner]

Lets talk about the way Victim Jill Robinson case file was handle from Day One, better yet let her mom tell you in her own words Part 2

Jill Robinson's mom, details of argument with Jill, father Tom Robinson, locations of Jill sightings, details of Jill's Bike and locations, and Spidey's testimony.

[Helen Dagner]

...And Jills Dad had this to say Part 9 *Karol Robinson complains about their LE contact not even knowing the case*

Tom Robinson’s complaints on the OCCK investigation and the lack of uniting the families to find commonality, LE Senior Robert Robertson’s approach of keeping the families isolated, Helen documents the 3 other families getting together in 2009, Jill seeing counseling over her premonition of a man killing her and possibly a link, Karol Robinson complains about their LE contact not even knowing the case, art dealer John McKinney’s murder and if it relates, Helen’s find of John’s family having connections to McKinney, description of the wall hanging piece of art stolen during McKinney’s murder with more details than ever revealed before by the convenience of seeing it in John’s apartment in 1992.

[Helen Dagner]

There are a lot of story's past down through the years about cops who may have been involved,we have their names and have been told why this or that person is claiming they know for sure that "He" is,-some of the stories have been told by one cop about yet another cop-Are they true? I looked deep into all of the accusation I have heard or been made aware of-I found nothing and only one of the stories still rings true to me,I think about it real often---Many times when I was talking to Jerry Tobias,he would ask me,so how did the blue paint get on Jill's bike? I kept telling him-I don't have a clue,and that others had told me when I asked them about the Blue paint,that there was none. So then Tobias would ask me if John was a house painter or did he do any construction work,I told him he may have because he did a lot of handy man jobs. I thought that would be the end of his asking me,but no-the very next phone call he would say how did the paint get on Jill's bike? This time I said,is this some kind of phone sex we are having? I was laughing and he was silent...the next day ,I was telling a coffee Buddie of Tobias,about this,only because I thought my comment to Jerry was really funny -and what he said next ,just about floored me,he said there was paint on the bike,but not when it was brought into the city garage as he was there,he was the mechanic who worked on the police vehicles. I promptly asked him what do you mean the bike didn't have paint on when it was brought in? He said I know it didn't because I looked the bike over,it was a really nice bike. Then I asked him well how did the paint get on it,he didn't want to tell me,finally he said well if you promise not to tell Tobias,that I said, then I will tell you,I said I promise-I promise, he went on to say that he never told Jerry,because he didn't want to get involved in any type of mess with the rest of the guys at work or the cops who hung around the garage---here is what he said happen and I do believe him today,because the boys who found the bike contacted me many years after and told me there was no blue paint on that bike when they moved it behind the building and had the clerk call the police to tell them it was there-He said he was working on a police car and could see Jill's bike against the wall,he was the only one at the garage at that time,when a police officer came in,didn't acknowledge him,so the cop must not of seen him-the cop looked all around like someone would that was about to do something he shouldn't, he said he couldn't believe his eyes when he saw the cop put paint on Jill's bike,then the cop just walked out and left,he was in uniform,so there was no mistaking that he was a cop...I told him you need to tell Tobias about this as all these years it has haunted him...but I have no idea if he told Jerry,because he never mention it to me again...and I never asked him about it- Does this mean anything? Could it of meant something back in the day? I guess we will never know that...now

[Helen Dagner]

Please help.

If you have any books of Little House on the Prarie that are 'inscribed' in any way with a person's name or something personal in it, please contact Helen Dagner. We're looking for a particular book that may have been a victim of a murder that was sold in Alpena Michigan in 1992. If a book is inscribed please give us the details.

Thanks,
Helen's Staff
[e-mail]

[Helen Dagner]

Hello~ Per my telephone conversation this am- and under the FOIA act-
I= would like to request all Tapes-CD's any voice contact I had with
Donald Studt -also my daughter Xxxxx Johnston' taped interview from
3-3-1992=I would also have had and Interview with Don and the then
Chief down in Birmingham in the same year-all about the Oakland County
Child Murder Cases of 1976-77-Thank You ,Helen L. Dagner Note: I need to get my hands on these Tapes,as there is some interesting things I told the Birmingham PD about Jill,and I have to make sure it matches my paper copy of notes from John and I,talking to each other...

[Helen Dagner]

Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (You can listen to the Music on Video-at 4:42
It is a great song,I play this real often and I can see Jill enjoying this song~
Jill Robinson's favorite song-when she was abducted ...It made her feel Free..Her body was found Dec.26,1976..along the side of Interstate 75 in Troy...she was now Free...and 35 yrs years later her killer-still-walks free...

The Beatles
Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds
Writer, lead vocal: John Lennon


Picture yourself in a boat on a river,
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly,
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes.
Cellophane flowers of yellow and green,
Towering over your head.
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes,
And she's gone.

Lucy in the sky with diamonds...

Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain
Where rocking horse people eat marshmellow pies,
Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers,
That grow so incredibly high.
Newspaper taxis appear on the shore,
Waiting to take you away.
Climb in the back with your head in the clouds,
And you're gone.

Lucy in the sky with diamonds...

Picture yourself on a train in a station,
With plasticine porters with looking glass ties,
Suddenly someone is there at the turnstyle,
The girl with the kaleidoscope eyes.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds... In Helen's Own Words - Part 2

Helen's first contact with Tom Robinson (Jill's dad) about John, her first contact with police over the OCCK details given from John, excerpt from Jill's favorite song Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and confirmed by a cousin, conceptual view of Hunter Maple Complex from 1977 where Tim was abducted and it's distinct shape from John's map. the various police departments listed on John's maps, parts of John's interview with police from FOIA docs, the inconclusive search for John's passport records and the inquiry of the first interview with John from 1977 with no passport reference back then, the book Wolf in Sheep's Clothing by Tommy McIntyre lend to John from Helen, an excerpt from the book that includes an interview with the first eyewitness account to Tim's abduction and the description of the man talking to Tim standing near a blue Gremlin.

[Helen Dagner]

And...maybe in taking the books from your backpack he symbolically revealed himself to be a book collector , which he was still yet when I met him,14 years after your death....In destroying your face...he may have wanted to prove that your premonition ...that you told him about...of being shot by a man without a face...had come true...and then my knowing John as I do...he may have wanted to steal your identity-like he believed his own had been stolen when he was your age...or it could have been because your father was an English Instructor...and John felt he needed to reduced you to even greater anonymity that is why he took the books...stripping you of that connection to your father...underpinning all of this -is the possibility that you and your father represented the school education system in which he experienced so much pain & turmoil...when he was your age

[Helen Dagner]

Every day I drive by the area where Jill Robinson's body was found, so I often study the area. That area is busy, very well lit, full of curves so you need to pay attention to how you're driving, and at that exit, there is the Troy police station.

Putting her body here seem to me to be an 'in your face' action - Certainly a move by someone who's confident they are going to get away with it.

[Helen Dagner]

Beware serial killer fallacy - Murderers prove elusive because they seem quite normal
Detroit News, The (MI) - Sunday, March 18, 2001
Author: Special to The Detroit News ; Ted Montgomery
"He seemed like just a normal family man." "I never saw anything unusual about him." "The person I knew could never have done these terrible things."

These are just some of the comments we hear whenever a serial killer is apprehended and convicted. I am constantly amazed at the incredulous remarks reported by the media whenever some savage killer is brought to justice. It's almost like history teaches us nothing.

The same scenario played last year when Detroit police apprehended John Eric Armstrong for the murders of three Metro Detroit women. Armstrong's friends, family and associates professed total disbelief that he was capable of such atrocities. Now that he has been convicted of murder , it is slowly sinking in that we can hardly ever spot those capable of such terrible crimes.

Serial killers are part and parcel of American society. In fact, serial murderers seem to be a particularly American phenomenon far more of these predatory individuals seem to prowl the United States than foreign soil.

They have been immortalized in books, on television and on the big screen. And still, despite our vast frames of reference, we seem to turn a blind eye to the threat serial killers pose. We flock to see movies like "Hannibal," and yet seem oblivious to the real-life threats that exist in our communities.

It was perhaps the most infamous serial killer, Ted Bundy, who gave us the following warning the night before he was executed in Florida in January 1989. Bundy said: "We are you brothers, your husbands and your sons." In attempting to put a face on the American serial killer, Bundy also exposed the horror of the phenomenon: Serial killers often turn out to be the last person you would ever suspect of committing such a horrifying crime. It's not unlikely that you stood next to him in the grocery check-out line one day.

Bundy's last prosecutor, Bob Dekle, the man who finally secured the death penalty conviction that cost Bundy his life, said "People think a (serial killer) is a hunchbacked, cross-eyed little monster slithering through the dark, leaving a trail of slime. They're human beings."

Thus, serial killers evoke the greatest hand-wringing and head-shaking among the populace. Not only can't we believe a fellow human being could wantonly kill people without feeling a modicum of remorse, we also can't believe we know this person. It just hits too close to home.

And yet it is that lack of menace that makes serial killers the most successful murderers of our time. More than 90 percent of murders are committed by people who know the victim, and most of those are solved within days or weeks of their commission, because the motive and connection between killer and victim is quickly and easily established.

Conversely, serial murderers kill victims to whom they have no prior connection, and their crimes often range over hundreds and even thousands of miles. It's difficult for investigative agencies in Tel Aviv to zero in on a suspect who is currently in Seattle. This was Armstrong's modus operandi he killed in places where he was never likely to return. He left a trail as cold as ice.

In truth, the media are partly to blame for propagating the myth that serial killers should be easy to identify and thus much less of a threat to society at large. In the wake of the first news that Armstrong had been arrested, the newspapers and TV stations sent out their best reporters to talk to Armstrong's friends and associates. Anyone who had even a minor connection to Armstrong had their memories probed to see if they had an inkling that Armstrong might be a killer.

The final score? Zero.

Here is what we do know about serial killers, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Behavioral Science Unit. They wear what one prominent psychologist called a "mask of sanity." They are skilled in the art of appearing normal to casual observation. They are often married and able to hold down steady jobs. They are almost always white men between the ages of 25 and 45.

Serial killers rarely use guns and are most often hands-on killers they usually strangle or stab their victims. They always kill strangers and usually prey on a certain type of victim: coeds, prostitutes, children , the elderly or the disenfranchised. They spend endless hours driving and trolling for victims.

Serial killers usually approach their victims on a ruse and almost always kill them and leave their bodies at preselected sites. And they almost always return to that site many times.

The one thing that can be said with certainty about serial killers is they are not easily identifiable. For every one who has been caught, there are easily four or five who will never be apprehended, according to most serial killer investigators. A prominent local example is the unsolved Oakland County child murders from the mid-1970s. It was Bundy who once said: "Society wants to believe it can identify evil people, or bad or harmful people. But it's not practical. There are no stereotypes."

If Bundy was right, we will continue to be amazed and chagrined that the boy next door turned out to be a killer of unfathomable depravity. Until we realize that serial killers seem normal to the naked eye, we will continue to be victimized by their crimes.

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