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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 18, 2013 4:16:51 GMT -5
Lucy In The Sky With Diamond (You can listen to the Music on Video-16
Jill Robinson's favorite song-when she was abducted ...It made her feel Free..Her body was found Dec.26,1976..along the side of Interstate 75 in Troy...she was now Free...and 35 yrs years later her killer-still-walks free...
The Beatles Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds Writer, lead vocal: John Lennon
Picture yourself in a boat on a river, With tangerine trees and marmalade skies Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly, A girl with kaleidoscope eyes. Cellophane flowers of yellow and green, Towering over your head. Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes, And she's gone.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds...
Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain Where rocking horse people eat marshmellow pies, Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers, That grow so incredibly high. Newspaper taxis appear on the shore, Waiting to take you away. Climb in the back with your head in the clouds, And you're gone.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds...
Picture yourself on a train in a station, With plasticine porters with looking glass ties, Suddenly someone is there at the turnstyle, The girl with the kaleidoscope eyes.
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds... In Helen's Own Words - Part 2
Helen's first contact with Tom Robinson (Jill's dad) about John, her first contact with police over the OCCK details given from John, excerpt from Jill's favorite song Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and confirmed by a cousin, conceptual view of Hunter Maple Complex from 1977 where Tim was abducted and it's distinct shape from John's map. the various police departments listed on John's maps, parts of John's interview with police from FOIA docs, the inconclusive search for John's passport records and the inquiry of the first interview with John from 1977 with no passport reference back then, the book Wolf in Sheep's Clothing by Tommy McIntyre lend to John from Helen, an excerpt from the book that includes an interview with the first eyewitness account to Tim's abduction and the description of the man talking to Tim standing near a blue Gremlin.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 19, 2013 3:11:58 GMT -5
Helen, didn't I read some where that John mention a Cult killed the Children? Matt *I think you mean this post as John only mention the word Cult to me one time--*When John first started mentioning The Oakland County Child Killer cases to me up in Alpena -He always talked in the 3rd person-So when I asked him my first questions-I said-well who do you think killed these kids? He said a Cult...I just about lost it-I was laughing so hard-I guess because he wanted to talk about Cults-to me a small town girl? Give me a break!...So I asked the next question. Well how did they get the kids in the car? He said a simple snatch & grab...I told him I didn't know what he meant-so he showed me....I can remember saying to him-this story is going to have to get better...Pu-lease a simple snatch and grab? John you have got to be kidding me,in broad daylight? He explained to me-it goes so fast...no one catches it-it is a lot like a purse snatching-only tool require strong wrist...well he sort of got my attention then-as John had really big wrists-just like my Dentist-but I said you would think the Oakland County Child Killer would be a lot more creative..John mumble something...but I didn't catch it....this time....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 20, 2013 1:56:02 GMT -5
I have always thought that the white German Shepherd was such a good clue, and there are so few as most breeders put white ones down. I have always maintained that there were two dogs involved and when I so many years and years ago called the Oakland County Detective in charge he told me there were no dogs involved. I sort of dropped it at that until I left the post on your blog a year or so ago (I think probably two years ago) and another blog about the incident. The reason I did this sketch is that I couldn't find my old one that I had e-mailed a year or so ago to that woman I spoke of earlier and I also heard of the white animal hairs and I freaked out (hair stood up on my spine) and had to produce one showing the dogs as they were hanging out the window. I now am convinced that the man was indeed the OCCK. I talked to the Bloomfield Police Chief? Xxxxx Xxxxx and he told me they still don't know the breed of the dog as there is a backup in California at the place that does animal DNA. I told him I bet they find it to be German Shepherd. I used to get scared at night thinking this creep may still be out there and could possibly harm my family. I think now that he is dead. Do you think so also? Oh, by the way the sketch is much better but I gave it to Chief Xxxxx who promised to forward it to the State Police. I am a trained artist and teach art at three different schools. Xxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 23, 2013 3:38:43 GMT -5
Hi Helen, Please look this over and then feel free to post it. You may want to XXXX out the names as I have included the names of the witnesses so that you would have them. I have put them in bold italic to make it easier for you. Kristine Mihelich, age 10. 48, 80 pounds. Shoulder Length brown hair. Abducted: Sunday, January 2, 1976 from either 7-11, or Bowling Alley across the street at the corner of 12 mile Rd. and Oakshire, Berkley. Found: Friday, January 21, On Bruce Lane, just S. of 13 mile and just West of Telegraph. Last seen about 3:00 p.m. Report filed at 6:00 p.m. Kristine Mihelich wanted to go to the store to purchase a magazine. She had been decorating her room with pictures and needed more. At first, her Mother told her no, and then thought since Kristine had done her a favor earlier that day that she would allow her to go. Her Mother gave her careful instructions and Kristine walked the approximate 5 minute walk to the store. A clerk, Kathy Carson, remembers Kristine buying a magazine and leaving the store. Another witness reported seeing Kristine at the Bowling Alley across the street. Detective Ray Anger of the Berkley Police took the missing child report. One of his Sons was in the same class as Kristine at Pattengill Elementary and Detective Anger knew her parents through the school. Of the 4 children attributed to the Oakland County Child Killer, Kristine was kept the longest, up to 19 days. A mailman from Waterford, Jerry Wozny, who was delivering mail on Bruce Lane, discovered Kristine. Upon discovery, he drove to the Franklin Village Police Department and told Chief Frank Wilson. At the scene, Chief Wilson radioed for help and over 2 dozen officers responded. Bruce Lane was a dead end Street with 5 houses on it. Kristine was found lying in a ditch on her back with her knees drawn up about 6 feet off the road. She had been covered in snow, except for the exposed hand and the top of her knees. She was wearing the same clothes as when she disappeared, a navy parka and jeans. There was no dirt on her body and her clothes were fairly clean. Her body was completely frozen. There was a trail of footprints that led from the road to the ditch and back. There were also tire tracks. The mailman was quoted as saying the body would be difficult to see unless you were up high, in a vehicle such as his mail truck. Steve Handle, a 17-year-old boy, who lived on Bruce Lane, reported seeing a small pick up truck near where the body was found. The driver appeared to be sleeping at the time. Investigators believed the body was left sometime after Monday, Jan. 17, because the footprints had been made in plowed snow, the roads were last plowed Monday. Kristines body was examined for finger prints, it is unclear if any were found. NOTE: Many of the details were taken from news articles. It is possible that innacurate information was fed to the killer through the press. After Kristine was found, Law Enforcement realized they were dealing with the Oakland County Child Killer. Evidence was turned over and the task force was formed.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 24, 2013 1:05:51 GMT -5
Helen, you and everyone needs to understand the abduction and murders of these four children had effected us all,we all thought we were going to be next or one of our brothers or sisters would be grabbed. I left St. Christopher Medals at the boys graves more than one time and said a pray for them. I use to go to Tim's grave a lot tell they moved it,I knew the grave must of been watch,because my friend put a wreath and a candle on it,and when he returned it was gone,lots of kids I knew put small flower arrangements on all of the graves. It was just to say that we felt very sorry that a serial killer got them and they never made it home and we did.Xxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 25, 2013 5:07:01 GMT -5
HELEN ANSWERS THE OAKLAND COUNTY TASK FORCE~AGAIN! MY DEAR DET.GRAY & ROBERTSON~OCCK TASK FORCE You're making it very clear that the only way to get things done in this investigation is if you already have connections. A retired police Lt., an original journalist from the 70's, etc. Everyone in this community deserves a proper response, not just the ones you carefully select. As to the statement about "unless you're there", it was meant that it's pretty strong for you to say someone is innocent, or they have been fully cleared, without some reasonable doubt. If the courts can convict "beyond a reasonable doubt", then why aren't investigations carried out the same? I mean unless you can prove somebody was actually dead, or you were an eye witness to their whereabouts, then how can you be so certain that a suspect, any suspect, wasn't for sure involved somehow? It would seem an investigator should keep an open mind, until the positive truth, and a conviction has already been accomplished. Are you saying none of the info I gave Tobias was in the files? No notes? No discussions? Then how did you come upon John's name in the first place? Did Tobias fully discuss each and every suspect with you? The statement regarding Det Robertson Sr was meant to show, you have to consider the source. With all due respect, Robertson Jr, is sorting thru the interviews his own father did. Is he really going to be as critical looking for missed areas or questions in the investigation, as if he were going thru a stranger's file? Common sense would seem that it would be difficult to identify areas your own father may have missed, and holes that weren't plugged in the investigation. The public knows there were obvious mistakes given the era and the number of police involved. We're hoping Robertson Jr. will look through non biased eyes when questioning the previous investigations and interviews. As a side note, I'm sure lots of people are positive they knew somebody who they thought was the OCCK for various reasons. But it's sad to think so many have been shunned away for so many years with their tips. Granted many tips are too general to have any meaning. But for the ones that have meaning, and are quickly dismissed, who knows how many other unsolved cases could be closed? REGARDS,MS. DAGNER
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 27, 2013 0:16:51 GMT -5
Helen, Is it to late for the public to help solve these cases? What would it take? Henry * Note: I always believe it is never to late to do anything in life. What it would take-If you could answer and prove any of the following...The case could be solved. #1-What was the orange color on Tim's skin & why was it there? #2-Why did Jill have a wet pair of panties in her back pack? #3 Why did Kris have Carbon Dioxide in her system? #4- Where were the Children Held. #5 Polaroid Picture
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 28, 2013 3:36:48 GMT -5
Site readers Questions~ Comments: "John's first girl friend, that he had hoped to marry, dumped him-because he was broke, with no prospects"
Helen, this was around the time of Ted Bundy and all of his mess. The line at the top was taken from your account of what you and John shared while meeting together. It's also almost the same as what happened to Ted Bundy and a girl he was seeing early on in his life. Ted was said to have gotten in touch with her later on in his life only to woo her and adore her once again, but once she was smitten with him and actually wanted to marry him, seeing how he turned around his life and wasn't the loser she saw him to be, then Ted dumped her. It was his plan of revenge he had always hoped to do to her.
My point, if you will, was there a chance John or someone was keeping up with Ted's case and news? Maybe reading a book/s about him at that time?
What is the personality of John like?
Also, people who kill and kill for need, unless John was not the one doing all of the killings alone, it's not so usual that they suddenly stop. Are there other killings that John should be associated with or looked into on his behalf?
When John contacts you, what does he share with you? Not everything of course, but what is the mood of the conversations? Bitter? Remorse? Annoyed? A friend saying hello? The poor misunderstood child murderer? Does he threaten you? What is the communication like now between you and John?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 29, 2013 3:32:45 GMT -5
Of course it's always easy to say these kinds of things in hindsight, but the press missed numerous opportunities here. They will argue that they had nothing to work with because the families wouldn't talk and the cops wouldn't say much. That doesn't stop a lot of investigative reporters, but apparently it did here. Not only were most stones left unturned, the stuff that showed up on t.v. during sweeps week or near the anniversary date of one of the murders was completely pathetic and crass.
Possible story lines:
1. Around the same time the task force was rejuvenated, Dennis Radar was arrested in the BTK serial killings (2-25-05). Those crimes began in 1978. The case differs significantly because usable DNA was left at the scene of these crimes and Radar was under surveillance after having mailed some incriminating materials to a t.v. news station. The DNA of his adult daughter was obtained and provided a familial match to crime scene evidence. A story could have been done contrasting these serial murder crimes which were of the same era. If the BTK crimes were solved, can the OCCK crimes be solved?
2. The "shake something loose" type of story. Sometimes, even after a very long time (or maybe because it's been a very long time), somebody comes forward. Get the meat of the story out there as well as all three of those composite drawings and see what happens. This is how the Unabomber case was solved--in 1995 the New York Times printed the Unabomber's "manifesto" and Ted Kaczynski's brother became suspicious after reading it and comparing it to some things Ted had said and written. David Kaczynski went to police with his suspicions, in spite of the fact that Ted could face the death penalty for his crimes.
Talk to retired police officers who worked on the OCCK--those who have nothing to fear as far as repercussions in the law enforcement community. I bet those guys have a wealth of information. Ask them for ideas of what should be put out in the public to try to get somebody to connect the dots and come forward. Try some creativity for god's sake. Ask them how they were hampered in their ability to investigate. Is Johannes Spreen still alive--what does he have to say about the investigation and how LE reacted to his comments of August 1977?
3. The impact of these crimes on the communities and on the entire state of Michigan. It's obvious from the postings on various sites all over the internet how personally devastating these crimes were to people who had no connection with any of the victims or the victims' families. Grown men and women posting about how the OCCK crimes still scare the nuts out of them; how it has affected their parenting; how their childhood was stolen from them in the wake of these crimes. And these are the people who didn't even know a victim or a victim's family member.
I'm not sure the subject was covered in any real depth back in the day, but it certainly has been ignored subsequently. Also, how do people feel about the fact that these crimes remain unsolved?
4. The Jimmy Hoffa barn-razing in May of 2006. Excuse me, but LE can spend that kind of money looking for the remains of a man whose links to the mob were well-known, but at that time no one was willing to run DNA tests on the animal hair in the OCCK case??
5. The impact of the internet on cold cases; your site being a prime example. Also, Alpena Witness is the real deal. Did ANYBODY ever contact you to try to speak with him? Do any of the press ever attempt to contact you??
6. I never saw any in-depth reporting in the Detroit area about Ted Lamborgine. That reporter in Cleveland put together a story on Ted--nobody in Detroit dug around?! Is this indicative of the type of reporting there?
7. I know for a fact that after the task force was rejuvenated, two Detroit-area newspaper reporters were given very explicit information about the possible involvement of a LeMans in two of the child killings. They were easily scared off by the MSP and did not pursue this story the way they should have. It is not just the car, and the fact that there were specific markers making this car unique-enough that had the thing been publicized, somebody might have recognized it, but also how this entire line of inquiry was handled back in the day and in the present.
8. How come everyone who comes forward with information or questions is mistaken, crazy, drunk, a drug addict, a liar, or overly-emotionally involved?
9. Whatever happened with Dr. Danto? He is deceased, but his involvement in these cases was quite interesting and unusual.
10. How did suspects like David Norberg, Todd Warzczykya (sp?), Ted Lamborgine, James Moore, and others who have appeared in the news over the years compare to the profile established back in the day and to the admonition that the killer "could be the doctor next door," etc.?
11. What the hell ever happened with the McKinney murder investigation? Was his murder in any way linked to the OCCK murders? Nobody finds it unusual that he was murdered six months after Tim King was murdered--two unsolved murders in Birmingham, Michigan within six months of each other???
12. Another obvious story--was this Grand Traverse Bay boys camp/porno photography factory reported in the Detroit area back when things went public in March of 1977. If not, why not. What ever happened to these incredibly horrible men who were involved in it--and many of them had big, big money. Were arrests ever made? Why was this not the subject of public speculation/discussion when the OCCK crimes were taking place? Is the reporter for the Traverse City Eagle-Recorder who covered that Grand Traverse Bay nastiness still alive and was he ever contacted by the task force to get further information? Did Christopher Busch's arrest in relation to the Grand Traverse crimes get reported in the Birmingham area? Xxxxx
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 1, 2013 0:54:44 GMT -5
he most compelling suspect, however, is James Donald Moore. I know I tend to overuse this word to describe these criminals, but Moore is a monster. Thankfully, he is safely locked away in the lovely Gus Harrison Correctional Center in Adrian, Michigan. For life.
Some of Moore's past convictions include child molestation in 1968 in Mt. Clemons, Michigan; sexual battery of a minor in 1978 in Southfield, Michigan, which was dismissed although I can't find any documentation as to the reason is was dismissed; and in 1987, child molestation in Lakewood, Ohio. Between the dismissed charges in Michigan in '78 and the charge in Ohio in '87, he moved to Cleveland and married a woman with children. She owned a blue Gremlin, long believed to be the car involved in the OCCK. He used it for frequent trips to Michigan to allegedly visit family.
At the time the OCCK were occurring, from February of 1976 until March of 1977, Moore was single. He met and married a woman from Ohio in August of 1977. This was an obvious ploy to conceal his true proclivities since he was a closeted gay who also happened to be a pedophile. He was not interested in sex with consenting adult males,although he thought he was, he was interested in sex with male children. So I guess that makes him just a pedophile, since gay males don't pursue children as sexual partners.
Other compelling facts: Moore was a neat freak. People seeing his house would have guessed he had a very thorough paid cleaning lady but he in fact cleaned himself and was obsessive about it. All of the victims of the OCCK had been well cared for and kept for a period before being found. They showed signs of bathing, nail clipping, and attention to personal cleanliness.
Moore was raised by very strict, very strange parents.
Moore was a truck driver. Itinerant lifestyle. Moore was also convicted of assaulting DJ Dempsey in Michigan. He is in prison for the particularly heinous death of Justin Bogdanik, who was found, barely alive, eyes Krazy Glued shut and horribly beaten, sexually assaulted, right here in Livingston County. Moore had lured Bogdanik by offering him money to help unload Moore's semi.
The similarities are striking. Moore preyed on victims who were vulnerable. Some were young, some were vulnerable in other ways, as in being homeless or drug addicts who were hustling for their next fix. Only the boys in the OCCK were sexually molested, the girls were not, as Amy Mihaljevic in Ohio was not sexually assaulted. All of the victims were also left near major roadways, so they were found very easily, as if the killer was giving himself a trophy for his handiwork.
According to an article in the Detroit Free Press, one of the suspects being investigated is from Cleveland. I hope it is Moore. He has left a devastating trail of victims who have a lot in common in with OCCK's victims.
According to Detective Anger, the cop who is revisiting the OCCK, Someone knows Something.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 2, 2013 13:41:23 GMT -5
Not many people realize just how hard it is to lose a sibling when he is abducted and murder and the case remains unsolved "Such things draw a mark across your heart and it's always a part of your life" (UNDER CONSTRUCTION)
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jul 6, 2013 7:00:51 GMT -5
We Will Still Be Posting These Stories ( " Not many people realize just how hard it is to lose a sibling when (he or she) is abducted and murder and the case remains unsolved "Such things draw a mark across your heart and it's always a part of your life") -----However there will be a delay as I have not finish these Interviews-
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