Post by Helen Dagner on May 28, 2011 20:25:44 GMT -5
The Dna...I talked to a lot of people about this, all professionals In the business they all say it doesn't mean much-It is like having a chance at winning the Lottery---- with a ticket ...your chance of winning is only slightly improved.
Post by Helen Dagner on May 29, 2011 5:58:44 GMT -5
Helen,I questions police tactics on Occk serial killer case The Michigan Attorney General's Office should be the one questioning what is going on with the Oakland County Child Killer Task Force Investigation-However he is too busy..just like his predecessors- for the past 34 years. Xxxx
Post by Helen Dagner on May 30, 2011 0:40:05 GMT -5
I haven't gotten a really good idea about this cass corridor connection that the police were trying to make.
At first, I thought that they were saying a crazy coke head from the cass corridor drove up to the burbs, abducted and killed a kid, then brought him back to the suburbs and dropped the body. Of course, that's ridiculous.
But is the real story that there was a pornography production ring that worked out of the cass corridor? If that's the case, wouldn't they be able to prove/disprove that theory when all these huge porn stashes keep getting revealed? Don't the authorities actually look through the images in an effort to identify the victims?
For example the dead doctor in connecticut - The new owners of his house found a secret room in the basement with thousands of child porn images. Were the occk kids among them? Or the east coast tornado that ripped open a house and revealed boxes of porn. And other similar events.
The occk murders happened in the 70s. Nobody had digital porn stashes. Everything was on projector film, pictures, and slides. When that kind of child porn is found now, is should be easier to determine if these children were involved or not.
However there still maybe a ray of hope....If they haven't continued to lie to us...then there is a slim possibility...that the State Police Forensic Lab....may have Dna...that does not belong to the victims....and will be able to be matched...to someone...someday...If this does happen-we all must remember...that it was the Lab that solved these cases....and we will need to praise everyone on the forensic team ....will also need to forgive The Occk Task Force....for letting us all down.....for not following up on our leads and for ignoring the public's input...and for their not applying any amount of shoe leather, elbow grease or sufficient interest to bring about the solving of the Oakland County Child Murders 1976-77 ~30~
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 1, 2011 0:10:00 GMT -5
-No Passport this time-He showed up for the interview with some encyclopedia of serial killers, allegedly to demonstrate that he is simply fascinated by these types of crimes and to bolster his premise that he was only discussing this crime with me because of interest, not involvement. (What a piece of work.)
He said I "made up" the map drawing and that he never said what AW overheard that December day in the Big Boy. Let me point out that AW had absolutely no reason to lie, and there are other witnesses who observed the map drawing, etc. It was at this point that John ran out of answers and started doing that weird trance thing- While at other points John never denied saying anything, just said I was making things up, and during the map discussion. He said the witnesses were wrong because he never said that stuff or wrote the maps.
The interview was 2 hours, and became heated at times.
John said he does not keep in contact with his family--hasn't talked to Xxx in ages; rarely talks with Xxxx . When asked why John didn't end up in Florida like some of the rest of his family, he had no response. John is completely strange and bizarre and often did not make eye contact.
John said he never knew any Chris Busch; didn't have a friend who committed suicide or know anyone at that time who killed himself. That I was smart enough to do the research on Busch' date of death and that the fact that it was on the same day as my husband's suicide was just a coincidence. This is a pretty d**n big coincidence, as is John's proximity to the Dirtbags house.
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 2, 2011 0:40:54 GMT -5
Original Task Force Head Passed Away
Robert H. Robertson, age 72, of Greenville and Florida, died Wednesday March 1, 2006 at Manatee Memorial Hospital, Bradenton, Florida. He was born in Grand Rapids, MI, on October 6, 1933, the son of Earl and Ora Reynolds Robertson.
Robert served a distinguished career with the Michigan State Police before retiring in 1984 as Captain. He was active in many communities in the state, such as serving as cub scout leader, coaching little league baseball, organizing the little league in Newberry, MI, enjoying retirement with the music group "Stringalings," serving as under-sheriff in Montcalm County, and working with the Michigan National Bank as head of security in West Michigan. He was also a member of the Elks Club and the First United Methodist Church in Greenville.
He was preceded in death by his parents, his grandson Eric, and his sister Beth Wilson.
He is survived by his wife of 53 years, DeEtta Covey Robertson of Greenville; their sons and wives Robert Jr. and Diane of Lansing, Curtis and Zina of Cheboygan, David and Susan of Westland, and John and Rose of Holly; grandchildren Jared (Danielle) and Kathryn Robertson, Daniel and Mark Robertson and their mother Denise Wohlberg, Haley and Emma Robertson, Joseph Robertson, James Ramos, and Holly and Kevin Bykkonen; great grandchildren Zachary and Lucas Robertson; sisters Myrtice (Bill) Perschabacher of Cedar Springs, and Yvonne Rosencrans (Angie) of East Lansing; aunt Marian Liggett of St. Joseph; step-mother Mildred Robertson of Rockford; nieces, nephews, and cousins; brother-in-law Henry (Diane) Covey of Lakeview; and many special friends to whom the family expresses gratitude for the assistance given these past months and years.
Funeral services with State Police honors will be held at Greenville First United Methodist Church on Monday, March 6, 2006 at 11 AM with Rev. Dr. Harry R. Johnson officiating. Burial will be in Solon Cemetery Cedar Springs. Visitation will be held on Sunday from 2-4 and 6-8 PM at Hurst Funeral Home, Greenville. If wishing to make a donation, please consider the Parkinson Foundation.
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 2, 2011 23:18:04 GMT -5
Readers Email from 2004-Helen, I want to be perfectly frank with you. I do not think John is the guy, but I am not discounting him either. The information that I gave the police was very detailed. There is enough circumstantial evidence, that I believe the police feel that probably know who did it. The person that I think was responsible may not have acted alone, and I remember him hanging with a guy that was mysterious and know one knew his real name or where he lived. But I want to compare notes with you and see if things tie together or not. I am interested in sharing my info with you, but I do have some reservations. I want to be comfortable that you are a sincere person and that your willing to get this issue put to bed, even if you eventually find out John did not do it. I am willing to except that I am wrong if the entire truth eventually means that I disagreeumptions were wrong. I believe that my info made it to all departments still involved, but I am curious if key information was shared. (Like the kind that would embarrass a detective that went way out on a limb in the wrong direction). I believe that I went to the wrong detective. If they have not solved the case, why are they not asking me more questions? I assume that you are experiencing some of the thoughts that I am. I understand that they have DNA from a animal hair and human hair. That's what I meant when I told you I know where his dog is buried (I buried him). His dog was with him during the abductions even if he is not the one. You give me a little info and I will give you a little. In a face to face, I will tell you everything if I feel that you are open minded. Let me tell you this much, he had a menial job, his only opportunities came in winter months, he had a means to take off work and still get paid, he was sexually confused,he spent time in a mental ward, he was handsome and approachable,he went through extreme hair style changes and mood swings during this era, painted his car a different color, was arrested for walking in Oakland County with his pants off, (he did not live there nor did he have a legitimate reason why he was there) and he was only in Michigan from early 1975 to October of 1977. I have provided the police with much more specific info. 90% of my info is verifiable. There are witnesses. What I am interested in from you is why was your website shut down and you made a comment in your article that something was happening but you weren't free to say it at this point. I also sense that you have been treated poorly by some of the authorities and I would like to understand that better. Do you think Anger and Patterson are embaressed that Norbergs' DNA was a non match?
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 6, 2011 21:13:26 GMT -5
Shad, Ill try to help you out here. It seems from your post over there at HD’s that you have a distorted view of me. Let’s look at some of your questions and see if I can clarify some things.
(You say) You think you have it rough because your adult friend was shot to death and his murder was never solved and because you believe Helen Dagner is wrong about the OCCK???
(Response) I don’t know why you think I have it rough. I don’t and I have completely come to terms with the non results about both cases. I’m not frustrated over them. I just live with it. All across the country we have unsolved murders. I don’t like it but there is nothing ordinary people can do about them. I am keenly interested in OCCK and McKinney though and continue to follow as information comes up and ask questions. Just for the record, HD may not be wrong about JH, I question her about much of what she says about him and the case in general, and I personally don’t think he is the perp, but she may not be wrong. I have never said JH didn’t do it.
(You say) Now, why would I raise the sex offender issue? You seem to like Ted and Randall Raar as suspects. You have posted a fair amount about this. This kind of crap must have gone on to some extent in the suburbs, too, and someone like Ted may have brought kids to the suburbs for this purpose. Perhaps you have some knowledge of this. It doesn't hurt to raise the issue--believe me, no one else will. I don't care if you are offended by the implication.
(Response) No I don’t have any knowledge of the workings of the sex trade, I’m not street savvy and I never knew people like Raar or Theodore. I’m not sure why you’re thinking I would have such knowledge, and don’t be offended, but I think you’re only trying to bait me.
(You say) Your interest seems to have been in tossing out the possibility of a connection between the OCCK murders John McKinney's murder, as well as tearing down Helen Dagner
(Response) I have no interest in tossing out any theory on either case. I wanted to make a connection with the two cases after I realized McK’s case was being ignored. Personal theories on their own don’t amount to a hill of beans though. I don’t discount the possibility at all.
(You say) " Let's hear what you have to say--for instance, how did you know John McKinney, how do you know he was questioned by police about the OCCK cases, do you know if his name was turned in to the task force as a suspect or maybe as someone who may have counseled the killer, did McKinney retain an attorney after police spoke with him, did you go to police in September of 1977 with any information or speculation about his murder, did your reserve- officer father speculate with you or have knowledge of the task force investigation? Why not ask you, no one else will. Beth
(Response) I was at the gallery the day two plainclothes came in and asked McK what he might know about the King case and the OCCK . When they saw me one of them came over to see if I knew anything. They were canvassing the area. He was not interrogated, or interviewed about it, to my knowledge, the cops were just out beating the bushes. It was a routine visit. No, I don’t know if anyone named him as a suspect, if McK counseled any one in the OCCK mater it would have been kept confidential by him. There was never any lawyer talk between the two of us. Yes, they talked to me at the station and I offered an opinion of who did it, I didn’t have any information to give. My dad left Bham in 1960. He never kept in touch with police dept.
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 10, 2011 3:26:21 GMT -5
**A father was approached by his small son who told him proudly, "I know what the Bible means!" His father smiled and replied, "What do you mean, you 'know' what the Bible means? The son replied, "I do know!" "Okay," said his father. "What does the Bible mean?" "That's easy, Daddy..." the young boy replied excitedly," It stands for 'Basic Information Before Leaving Earth.' (This one is my favorite)
There was a very gracious lady who was mailing an old family Bible to her brother in another part of the country. "Is there anything breakable in here?" asked the postal clerk. "Only the Ten Commandments." answered the lady.
"Somebody has said there are only two kinds of people in the world. There are those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good morning, Lord," and there are those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good Lord, it's morning."
A minister parked his car in a no-parking zone in a large city because he was short of time and couldn't find a space with a meter. Then he put a note under the windshield wiper that read: "I have circled the block 10 times. If I don't park here, I'll miss my appointment. Forgive us our trespasses." When he returned, he found a citation from a police officer along with this note "I've circled this block for 10 years. If I don't give you a ticket I'll lose my job. Lead us not into temptation."
There is the story of a pastor who got up one Sunday and announced to his congregation: "I have good news and bad news. The good news is, we have enough money to pay for our new building program. The bad news is, it's still out there in your pockets."
While driving in Pennsylvania , a family caught up to an Amish carriage. The owner of the carriage obviously had a sense of humor, because attached to the back of the carriage was a hand printed sign... "Energy efficient vehicle: Runs on oats and grass. Caution: Do not step in exhaust."
A Sunday School teacher began her lesson with a question, "Boys and girls, what do we know about God?" A hand shot up in the air. "He is an artist!" said the kindergarten boy. "Really? How do you know?" the teacher asked. "You know - Our Father, who does art in Heaven... "
A minister waited in line to have his car filled with gas just before a long holiday weekend. The attendant worked quickly, but there were many cars ahead of him. Finally, the attendant motioned him toward a vacant pump. "Reverend," said the young man, "I'm so sorry about the delay. It seems as if everyone waits until the last minute to get ready for a long trip." The minister chuckled, "I know what you mean. It's the same in my business."
People want the front of the bus, the back of the church, and the center of attention.
Sunday after church, a Mom asked her very young daughter what the lesson was about. The daughter answered, "Don't be scared, you'll get your quilt." Needless to say, the Mom was perplexed. Later in the day, the pastor stopped by for tea and the Mom asked him what that morning's Sunday school lesson was about. He said "Be not afraid, thy comforter is coming."
The minister was preoccupied with thoughts of how he was going to ask the congregation to come up with more money than they were expecting for repairs to the church building. Therefore, he was annoyed to find that the regular organist was sick and a substitute had been brought in at the last minute. The substitute wanted to know what to play. "Here's a copy of the service," he said impatiently. "But, you'll have to think of something to play after I make the announcement about the finances." During the service, the minister paused and said, "Brothers and Sisters, we are in great difficulty; the roof repairs cost twice as much as we expected and we need $4,000 more. Any of you who can pledge $100 or more, please stand up." At that moment, the substitute organist played "The Star Spangled Banner." And that is how the substitute became the regular organist! When you carry the Bible, Satan gets a headache..... When you open it, he collapses..... When he sees you reading it, he faints..... When he sees that you are living what you read, he flees...... And when you are about to forward this message.... He will try and discourage you.. I just defeated him!!! Any other takers?
-- if i see myself in others, whom then can i harm?
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 12, 2011 19:00:58 GMT -5
FOR THOSE OF US WHO REMEMBER
Hollywood Squares: These great questions and answers are from the days when ' Hollywood Squares' game show responses were spontaneous, not scripted, as they are now. Peter Marshall was the host asking the questions, of course..
Q.. Paul, what is a good reason for pounding meat?
A. Paul Lynde: Loneliness!
(The audience laughed so long and so hard it took up almost 15 minutes of the show!)
Q. Do female frogs croak?
A. Paul Lynde: If you hold their little heads under water long enough.
Q. If you're going to make a parachute jump, at least how high should you be
A. Charley Weaver: Three days of steady drinking should do it.
Q. True or False, a pea can last as long as 5,000 years...
A. George Gobel: Boy, it sure seems that way sometimes.
Q. You've been having trouble going to sleep. Are you probably a man or a woman?
A.. Don Knotts: That's what's been keeping me awake.
Q. According to Cosmopolitan, if you meet a stranger at a party and you think that he is attractive, is it okay to come out and ask him if he's married?
A.. Rose Marie: No wait until morning.
Q. Which of your five senses tends to diminish as you get older?
A. Charley Weaver: My sense of decency..
Q. In Hawaiian, does it take more than three words to say 'I Love You'?
A. Vincent Price: No, you can say it with a pineapple and a twenty..
Q. What are 'Do It,' 'I Can Help,' and 'I Can't Get Enough'?
A. George Gobel: I don't know, but it's coming from the next apartment.
Q. As you grow older, do you tend to gesture more or less with your hands while talking?
A. Rose Marie: You ask me one more growing old question Peter, and I'll give you a gesture you'll never forget.
Q. Paul, why do Hell's Angels wear leather?
A. Paul Lynde: Because chiffon wrinkles too easily.
Q.. Charley, you've just decided to grow strawberries. Are you going to get any during the first year?
A.. Charley Weaver: Of course not, I'm too busy growing strawberries.
Q. In bowling, what's a perfect score?
A. Rose Marie: Ralph, the pin boy.
Q. It is considered in bad taste to discuss two subjects at nudist camps.. One is politics, what is the other?
A. Paul Lynde: Tape measures..
Q. During a tornado, are you safer in the bedroom or in the closet?
A. Rose Marie: Unfortunately Peter, I'm always safe in the bedroom.
Q. Can boys join the Camp Fire Girls?
A.. Marty Allen: Only after lights out.
Q. When you pat a dog on its head he will wag his tail. What will a goose do?
A. Paul Lynde: Make him bark?
Q. If you were pregnant for two years, what would you give birth to?
A. Paul Lynde: Whatever it is, it would never be afraid of the dark..
Q. According to Ann Landers, is there anything wrong with getting into the habit of kissing a lot of people?
A. Charley Weaver: It got me out of the army.
Q. It is the most abused and neglected part of your body, what is it?
A. Paul Lynde: Mine may be abused, but it certainly isn't neglected.
Q. Back in the old days, when Great Grandpa put horseradish on his head, what was he trying to do?
A. George Gobel: Get it in his mouth.
Q. Who stays pregnant for a longer period of time, your wife or your elephant?
A. Paul Lynde: Who told you about my elephant?
Q. When a couple have a baby, who is responsible for its sex?
A.. Charley Weaver: I'll lend him the car, the rest is up to him
Q. Jackie Gleason recently revealed that he firmly believes in them and has actually seen them on at least two occasions. What are they?
A. Charley Weaver: His feet.
Q. According to Ann Landers, what are two things you should never do in bed?
A. Paul Lynde: Point and laugh
WE DON'T STOP LAUGHING BECAUSE WE GROW OLD, WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP LAUGHING
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 15, 2011 14:15:35 GMT -5
Hastings was one of the polygraphs; that much is obvious even from the redacted version of the notes/documents relating to this. Another polygraph--who? Who knows.
Nothing since Oct. 2009--umm, maybe that should read "nothing after families go to the media." Yeah, they met with some family members at the end of October 2009, AFTER canceling the meeting at least three times. Another victim's family member was told not to attend the meeting, that it was just designed to kick the Kings in the nuts for going to the media. F'ers sat there and said nothing, responded to nothing and have the gall to say they "sat down with family members of Tim King and Kristine Mihelich." Sat there and tried to make them squirm. You scum.
It is very plausible that someone offed Busch and attempted to pin the OCCK crimes on him--whether he participated or not. My vote is that he participated. However, either way, are you telling me nobody takes a close look at this sh*t and that, unlike the case of at least four other suspects, not one word is said about him to ANYBODY?
Where is the report from Davis and Pierce, who responded to the Busch suicide scene on behalf of the MSP OCCK Task Force? These two men are still BOTH ALIVE and refuse to talk to anyone about responding to what has been described to the families as a simple suicide scene? Their report--and there had to be one, as the task force ended up with that pencil drawing of a boy screaming who resembled Mark Stebbins--AND those bloody ligatures (now missing--of course), was not turned over in the MSP document production in response to FOIA requests. These guys actually send two task force members to the Busch suicide scene, the MSP winds up with the pencil drawing--and, despite their lies, the ligatures, and there is NO DOCUMENTATION? Shameless.Cathy
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 16, 2011 3:31:25 GMT -5
Norberg was questioned several times during the search and more than once was cleared as a suspect. "I don't want to sound like a wet blanket. There are coincidences, but there are a lot of people who have those coincidences," Birmingham Police Cmdr. Don Studt said... Studt, was one of more than 200 officers who formed a task force to investigate the slayings, "I hope there's some conclusive action either way." From February 1976 to March 1977, the bodies of Mark Stebbins, 12, of Ferndale; Jill Robinson, 12, of Royal Oak; Kristine Mihelich, 10, of Berkley; and Timothy King, 11, of Birmingham were discovered fully clothed along roads in or near Oakland County. The children had been snatched off the streets, held captive for four to 19 days, and fed and bathed before they were killed, evidence showed. The two boys were sexually assaulted, police reports said. Fear-gripped parents locked doors and lectured children about being enticed by strangers as the task force fielded hundreds of tips and set up a massive dragnet. As quickly as the killings began, they ended, and by the end of the '70s, some investigators wondered if they would ever be solved. Despite the doubts, Anger said he is convinced that the cross found in Norberg's possessions belonged to Kristine Mihelich. Her mother did not remember the cross, which was engraved with "Kristine." But it was identified under hypnosis by an aunt. "It was a prize from the Romeo Peach Festival carnival, and she detailed what the engraving on the cross looked like. She hadn't seen it in 15 years," Anger said.... What's more, Norberg bore a resemblance to a sketch of the suspect made after Timothy King's murder. Timothy was last seen talking to a man in a blue American Motors Gremlin; Norberg drove a similar car at the time. "The very first investigators cleared him, but they never talked to him; they talked to his wife," Anger said. "Based on that conversation, they cleared him. Then they went back and reinterviewed him, and this guy did not come up with the right answers." Others aren't so certain. Investigators believed the killer lured the children before abducting them. Norberg drank heavily, used drugs and carried himself in a way that wouldn't endear him to children, Studt said. Jerry Tobias, a Birmingham child psychologist and former task force member, interviewed Norberg in the late '70s and came to the same conclusion
Post by Helen Dagner on Jun 19, 2011 22:07:09 GMT -5
Yes, they could easily still be assuming I am stupid. I am going to Arizona with my best friend from high school from Sept. 20-27. I'm sure, given the way things have gone lately, that the cops will do something during that time period. I will just bring my computer and hope I can get internet service. Cory told me long ago that Gray and Robertson asked a lot of questions about me, implying that they don't like me too much. I said that's fine, because I hate them. Gray complained to Cory that I am just a daddy's girl who goes running/complaining to her daddy when she doesn't get her way. What an a-hole. Now there is someone who consistently underestimates people, especially women. What a pig.
I don't know how they will answer the boy/girl thing--that is the obvious big question. Also, I don't doubt that Busch was a doper and drinker, nor do I doubt he was a dumb ass. But what that piece of human garbage did have was a rich father and mother who bailed his ass out right and left. Here is something I discussed with my brother--if Busch was involved, the MSP obviously f**ked up in polygraphing him and clearing him. My brother was then murdered after they let him go. It is entirely possible that H. Lee Busch paid somebody off or made threats in order to make sure his son was never looked at again as the OCCK. Stay with me here--that nuts at the suicide scene can be construed as "I did it" (and Charles could have easily ditched any suicide note--or killed him himself). Busch then threatens the cops with "you can't prove this beyond a reasonable doubt and I will sue your ass if you make any statements. I didn't think to ask if Chris had been dumped in a looney bin (no doubt in Europe) at some point between March 1977 and November 1978.
Anyway you look at this, there are a million ways to spin it. I am about out of gas, but whatever the deal is with Busch, they still HAVE to conclusively rule Hastings in or out. I tried to make that as plain as I could.
I will keep you posted; I am sure if something is going to blow that they will give my Dad 24-hours notice. It was his understanding that NONE of the other families know any of this and that they have not been contacted by the MSP. How would you like to get blindsided by that??? These guys never cease to amaze.