***Alpena Witness Speaks- Witness to Big Boy-

Video #13

Alpena Witness Speaks
Witness to Big Boy (2 of 3)

Alpena has two Big Boy restaurants, the discussion in front of him and the eeriness, the Troy map that AW could see briefly, 'Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds', AW's wrong conclusions about the discussion and why.

Re-Post-Alpena Witness-I have walked into a real dilemma with this whole thing and it is frustrating. Taking a quote from Casual Observer where she describes me as “It is as if this witness awakened only to find that they are a key player in someone else’s nightmare”. I don’t think anyone could describe it any more accurate than that. I should say that I have no bones to pick with LE. I got involved with this thing rather late and have no grudges to anyone. I just want the truth to be known. I actually had a total neutral opinion of the OCCK investigation, basically I knew nothing about it really to have an opinion. However, I’m slowly establishing an opinion of it and it’s not a good one! I eventually made contact with three investigators of the OCCK. For the sake of simplicity let’s just say I forgot their names. It’s completely irrelevant whom I talked to from LE anyway.

When I did wake up to this, it was shocking. I couldn’t get over the fact that these imaginary children and murders that this man was rambling on about are real murder victims. What was also so strange to me is that these murders occurred 14 years previous to this discussion at Big Boy. I just would have never believed that this was the case. I felt really stupid and guilt feeling for just blowing this off thinking it was just nonsense. I guess if I had a chance in life to relive something, I wish I could revisit that time but would have known something about the OCCK details. Maybe just the children’s names or the bath thing would have helped.

After getting over the shock of my discovery, the first thing I did was email to Helen. I wanted her to at least know that someone was there. She might even remember me sitting there when she gave me the strange look. I didn’t get into any details about what I heard or the map details I just couldn’t. One thought that entered my head was that the police already investigated this case in Alpena afterwards and found nothing so there was no need to get into any real details like that. I really didn’t want to get involved at that point anyway and I felt there was really no need. So I just wrote to her and gave minor details just to acknowledge that I was there like where they sat in the restaurant, the date this occurred, etc. So this started the correspondence with Helen.

Meanwhile I kept thinking that maybe I should do more. It just doesn’t seem right that here I remember this so clearly and maybe the police should know. I talked to a retired police officer friend. I wanted his opinion and was hoping he would know something about this. After going into all the detail he felt I should contact the police immediately and let them know. He felt that the OCCK case is still unsolved and maybe I witness something that could shed light on it. He really didn’t know much about
OCCK because he wasn’t a cop in Oakland County at the time.

Going to the police station local to me they gave me a phone number for the OCCK investigation. I called and told them in detail what I witnessed with this couple at Alpena Big Boy. The man asked me does this have to do with Helen Dagner? I said yes, I believe so. He told me there is no validity to anything Helen Dagner says. I told him that’s not true, I was there and I can assure you the discussions took place. He said, I must have seen a different couple because it was not Helen and John. He told me that John is from a respectable family and there is no way he’s the OCCK. He told me that I could fill out a police report anyway if I want. I figure what’s the use in doing this. After I got off the phone I thought to myself, ‘What the hell is this all about?’ ‘A respectable family?’, since when does that matter on something like this? Who was this guy I saw and heard in Alpena, Big Boy that talked like someone completely nuts? How could he be ruled out that quick by just stating he’s from a respectable family? I wondered if maybe someone from the Kennedy family was visiting Alpena in 91? What are the odds of sitting in the same restaurant in the same town, same year, hearing a couple talk about child killings and drawing maps on placemats but it was a different couple? I didn’t even have the nerve to tell Helen this. I thought to myself the police don’t even believe her but here I am absolutely certain of what I witnessed. Am I holding the key to something and I just need to let the right person in LE know? How can I present this to whomever so they at least know that I’m not a crackpot? It started to really bother me emotionally. My friends just told me to put it down and just forget about it. It’s hard to do that when you know part of this is the absolute truth. Oh yeah that’s the night that guy was talking like a nut at Big Boy. In the middle of this ‘internet fairy tale’ comes real parts of a discussion I heard with a couple in front of me where I could tie a date, a face, a Troy map. the booth location where they sat, what they wore, the waitress that served us that night and many other details.

At some point I talked to other friends in LE. Most of them were really surprised to find out that there really was any truth to anything in Helen Dagner’s story. They heard through the grapevine that it was just made up and that Helen was just trying to get attention on the internet. They had no leverage to help me. They recommended that I keep talking to the OCCK investigation. They felt that maybe I just called on a bad day previously. There was a point where there was a new Michigan State Police ‘hotline’ for
OCCK tips. It ended up being just a message machine. I called in and left a rather detailed message about what I witnessed in Alpena in 91. I never received any return calls from this. Within a day or two there was something on the news about details of a bogus confession was received on the hotline. I’m assuming this was me but who knows. ‘So it really was a bogus confession?’ I thought to myself. I also wondered that if this was simply a bogus confession and that John admitted to it back in 91, why was there so much conflict with Helen? Why did they play good cop, bad cop with her? She was telling the truth and John admitted to giving the story why was there a conflict?

Around this time the family members of John were posting on AMW. If I recall correctly there were three of them, two sisters and one brother. They stated that there were no maps drawn and they don’t even exist. John never confessed to any murders. That he was only telling Helen details about the murders from what he read in the newspapers and that Helen tried to pin him for being the OCCK. All I can say is BULLnuts I know this is not the truth! So this is when I posted on there trying to get them to tell the truth. I just couldn’t help it. If they are going to clear John they better at least come out with the truth. I only stated one thing I thought I heard hoping they would spill the truth. They didn’t and instead claimed that I heard wrong. Now here is the thing. If the police have already claimed this to be a bogus confession by John why would John’s family go on saying Helen made all of this up? Were they really in communication with John? Did John tell his own family what happen? Did LE forget to inform the family of what really took place in Alpena? Was the family ever even contacted by LE during all of this? Something is really wrong with this picture. Is the family covering this whole thing up? Someone eventually did state on AMW that maybe John did draw one map. Well I sure as hell hope so! I guess also they did state that John made this up and Helen was gullible to it but I didn’t see these posts because the thread was deleted. It seems to me that they were a little late in stating this anyway after a witness comes and states it first. There is something very suspicious about this. Somewhere in the AMW discussion posts they were really challenging me on how I could remember so much from 14 years before. Well I remember plenty and was pretty confident at the details I remember from that night. After this took place I was more determined to email Helen and tell her everything I recall from that night and have her post it. That’s when I quoted things heard and got into the map details.

I made a trip to Alpena around this time. I talked to a retired police officer to try to get some information on this. He didn’t remember much but he did suggest I talk to someone that investigated this in 91. From there I made my second contact with someone that was involved with OCCK investigation. I talked to him in person and it was a pleasant discussion. He basically told me that John did this for attention. That’s about all I’ll say. I will say though that he at least listened to what I had to say but he was not directly involved with the OCCK investigation anymore.

It began to occur to me that for just a ‘bogus confession’, why does John know so much? I kept thinking about the details Helen was stating. How does he know this? I kept thinking back from that night and how he said things and how it all sounded so real the way he described things. It was weird. There were times the way he talked like he was fantasizing these murders he committed. The personalities of these children were very real also in his mind anyway at the time. When I read Casual_Observer’s post about the woman that ran into the killer at the pharmacy? I wondered how John could hit this right on the head. Basically her testimony puts John right at the pharmacy the day Tim was taken. Or at the very least he has inside knowledge of someone that was at that pharmacy. Casual_Observer spent some time making a video documenting John’s route from the pharmacy. I was really curious about this. OK if all I heard was a bogus confession why all this other stuff. I will say that after I talked to Casual_Observer in detail, I was convinced that this was not a bogus confession. That there is indeed a problem here and that someone should really be looking at this case seriously! I have very high respects for Casual_Observer and can understand where she is coming from with her experience. She is very intelligent and levelheaded thinking and should be interviewed by LE also.

I eventually made contact with a third person involved with the OCCK investigation. This was first done by email. He wanted to talk on the phone so I left him my home and work phone number. The reason why is that I figure during office hours he could contact me at work to arrange for a time to meet in person. Instead he calls me at work and we talk for over an hour. It was difficult for me to talk about this at work. I expected him to be skeptical and he was. He asked me at one point if I was nuts? I told him
I wasn’t the last time I checked. When I got into detail about hearing the man talk about killing children at Big Boy I had people around my desk wondering what I was talking about on the phone. It was so difficult to discuss openly about it at work and he seemed to rather debate Helen and all her claims. Just because I’m a witness to something does it mean that I believe everything Helen has stated? It almost seemed like I was considered a member of the Helen cult group at this point. He got into all these things that Helen claims that are wrong. I had to keep steering the conversation back to what I witnessed. I didn’t even know that much detail to debate. I didn’t really care to debate and most of it I wasn’t even picking up on because there were other conversations going on around my desk at the same time. . Helen was wrong about the boots on the victim. Helen was wrong about the book. I didn’t even hardly get any words in, it was all Helen this and Helen that. Now I will admit that I know nothing about law enforcement but it doesn’t take a Sherlock Holmes to figure out that maybe John intended to not be accurate on everything but I didn’t even get a chance to tell him that. He nailed me with ‘How could I possibly hear someone talking about killing children and not do anything about it?’ I tried to explain and it just didn’t come out right. This person has had no interest in a person to person discussion on this and seems like the discussion on the phone with me at work was sufficient. I offered several times that I could make arrangements to talk in person, he wasn’t interested in that. I believe from the discussion that this person has had ‘The Helen Gossip Scoop’ passed down to him from whomever and it’s just something to not bother with. Could very well be Detective Anger himself that still have influence on the OCCK investigation? Now I’ve had no interaction with Detective Anger but I have to figure politically it would be to his advantage that no one ever takes Helen seriously because if they found out that there really is something to this, it will not make him look good for the record books.

I made an effort to talk to another LE staff this past winter. I was checking out something in Troy. I took the wrong turn and passed by the police station there. Since this whole thing is still very heavy in my mind, I returned there to introduce myself. I figure I’m still open to talk to whomever from LE that wants to talk about this and I had the impression they may be doing their own independent investigation. Besides that, the Troy map that I saw drawn was from around there some where. All they told me was that they would get back with me. Instead they pass my name and information to the person that called me at work previously. Within a few days he calls me at work again and basically stated that we already talked and there was no need for me to go to the Troy police over this matter.

As I’ve stated already I came to this thing neutral but as time goes on I believe the OCCK investigation is way off course. There is something very wrong with it. I may not believe everything Helen states but I know she’s telling the truth about Big Boy. I hate to sound like a broken record here but my biggest concern is if there really is something to John and LE has blown it off. I have very strong beliefs now that this is most likely the case. As far as the Alpena investigation in 91 maybe LE just didn’t believe it. It’s understandable, I can imagine because I didn’t believe it either and I had the discussions and details done right in front of me! And maybe every time after that LE treated it as don’t believe anything about Helen syndrome. There may be corrupted police out there like the latest Livonia story and most certainly how some witnesses have been ignored all these years. I can only try to keep an open mind with trust and let the truth be known to whomever in LE that wants to know the truth. I’d like to hope anyway that someone is looking at this objectively for what the facts really are instead of opinions. So when ever I get a chance to talk, I will pursue it and strongly suggest that these new witnesses do the same. Perhaps these new witnesses will have something that connects the dots that makes the OCCK investigation go back on course. So please go to whomever from LE that has an open mind to at least listen. Maybe new information will open their mind.

Please Forward to Helen Dagner;

I have spent some time during the holiday
break visiting various web sites. I’ve ran
across your site along with some of your posts
on other sites. When I read the keywords Alpena,
Big Boy and drawing maps on the back of
placemats I felt a sudden chill, something kicked
from my memory. Maybe it was a dream that I
suddenly recall but I don’t think so. I remember
exactly where I sat at that restaurant!!! I was at
Big Boy in Alpena with what you describe took place.

I know the restaurant very well since childhood. It
was the Big Boy on Chisholm Street or also known
as US 23 North. A small bridge for US 23 over
the Thunder Bay river is right next to it. I recall it
was late in the evening when my friend
and I entered the restaurant. We sat at a
booth which was down the right isle. In fact it was
the very first booth which was behind the counter for
the cash register. I sat facing away from the cash register
and from door direction. To my right were the stool type seats
where nobody was sitting. Further right is the kitchen
and serving area where the waitresses pick up the food
from the cooks. After the orders were taken my friend
used the restroom. Our booth was the closest to the
restrooms. It was very quiet there and there
were not many people around. There were a couple
sitting to the booth right in front of me. The man
was talking and I thought I heard the word ‘murder’
He was drawing something on the back of the
paper mat they give you to place your food.
The word ‘murder’ I was pretty certain of
hearing and caught my attention (Especially for being
in Alpena) . I tried looking over his shoulder to
see what he was drawing. It looked like he was drawing
maps. He was facing away from me (same direction as me
towards Thunder Bay River and away from the door) so I
could not hear well. It sounded like street names were mentioned.
Suddenly the woman sitting with him looked up at me. She had
the look on her face that she just saw a ghost. I won’t forget that
look, it made me suddenly very uncomfortable. I thought, did I
shock her for some reason? I wondered if my appearance was
that repulsive to her. I guess it’s not polite to stare or eavesdrop
so I looked away. Suddenly the man stopped talking and turned
completely around and looked at me. He looked like he
was very upset. A look that I can’t exactly
describe like I shoudn't be there. I quickly glanced elsewhere
again. I was thinking oh boy here we go, a fight for just sitting here.
Maybe they were both reacting to my smoking. My friend returned to
the table at this time and I suddenly felt more comfortable being there.
After all, I don’t see my friend that much only when I come for those
rare visits to Alpena. As we were served I kept trying my best to hear
the conversation going on in front of me. It was difficult because
I could hear nothing but mumbling but my curiosity was so high.
I don’t remember much except that it was street names a few that
identified to be Detroit suburbs. My friend was trying to talk to
me and I don’t think I responded much because I was trying so
hard to hear. The cash register behind me was making noises
as the host was talking to the people leaving. I figure the couple
investigates murders in Detroit and was probably in Alpena for
vacationing. However as the discussions continued over there
I could see the woman getting very emotional. I began
to wonder if she knew one of the victims. She seemed very upset
and scared. She was wiping tears from her eyes. I felt there was
something very wrong based on her reactions. Looking around I
could see that nobody else noticed any of this, The
couple got up and left about this time. She was still wiping
her eyes as she stood up. After they paid at the register
and were near the door. I asked my friend if he heard
any of the conversation behind him. He said no.
I told him that it’s about murders in Detroit and
something seemed very odd about it. He didn’t
pick up on any of it. After a few more minutes I never gave
anymore thought about it. Through the years I never once
thought about it or ever discussed this with anyone.
Why I recall it so quickly from reading your
post is beyond me.

I can’t place a date when this occurred. Reading
your web site hints toward the year 91. My records
show that I was in Alpena during Christmas of that
year. Most likely I was at Big Boy on
December 26, 1991. If I need to, I may
be able to find other dates when I might have
been there.

I don’t think I can remember anymore from
this event. If I even try to describe what
the couple looked like I may be only guessing.
I thought the man was wearing some type of
dress suit which made me think he was
an investigator. Business gray suit seems to comes
to mind.

Was that you Helen? Was that John? I want to
remain anonymous, besides I have nothing that can be
of any significant value to this case. I just wanted to
share this with you.

Hey good to hear from you Robert-I have been getting your face book announcements-I see all the people who are friends with you-I can not post there-because I can not remember my pass word-and they won't let me change it-lol--anyway -your email address does not work for me-so you will have to send me your new email-That was really nice of you to acknowledge Alpena Witness-I bet your glad that school is out-myself I could never be a teacher-say Hello to your Mom for me- Helen