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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 16, 2012 14:57:01 GMT -5
Site Reader~ # 1001~*I think the investigation failed on a very base level the moment over 300 tips were erased in the first days of Tim King's abduction. That coupled with the belief that the police were truly following up on every lead, diligently working to solve these cases led to complacency on the part of the greater community. . .for a decades.
After reading the FOIA docs, it is clear that when new information was presented (John), even though they did, in fact, investigate, they did not do a complete job in following up on his alibi. There are far to many coincidences involving John, his family, their sudden moves etc. to simply shake their heads at and say, "We have bigger fish." And that was before Chris Busch arrived on the scene.
- I do know that the Wasser story is true. It is not something Patrick made up and the "real time" of the unfolding took place in a period of months, maybe over a year. It was not immediate. Wasser was first made aware that his utterings were "viral" many months after it happened and as soon as he knew it was out he lawyer-ed up and tried to fight having to talk. In the end, HE is the one who pointed toward Busch.
The fact that Busch, did not look like the composite, did not appear to be someone that could entice a child, is important. The fact that he was a pedophile and was known to have abused kids in his neighborhood is important. The fact that JOHN was the same age, lived painfully close to the Busch's and was turned in as a possible OCCK suspect is important. The fact that they both claim to be in Europe at the time of the killings is important. The fact that their stories have never been fully checked out is important. The fact that John's youngest brother left town in the fall of his senior year within a week of when Busch died, and his parents sold the house is important. The fact that this brother has changed his profession, changed his name, suffers from a disease that is often thought to be due to significant emotional stress in childhood is important. The fact that the youngest brother lists as his favorite quote on FaceBook as : SUCCESS IS HAVING A CLEAR CONSCIENCE, is important. I believe that Busch and John knew each other, may have used each other for their differing plans. I believe that John failed questions on his poly regarding the OCCK abductions and killings is important.
I believe it will be easier to pin this on a dead guy who was a known freak than to fully investigate John.
Until John H has been investigated fully, and by fully I mean questioned about the abductions, questioned about his alibi, his travels documented properly to see if they fit his story (because they don't fit his mother and sister's versions), questions about the maps, questions about his family. As of now all we have is his response to his conversations with Helen. We KNOW those took place, get to the crimes instead. He was awful nervous the day after his last Poly (according to the FOIA docs), why? What would concern him suddenly after all of these years?~~~~ My point about Busch is that how it came about and how freaking close they lived from each other leads me to believe he was involved somehow. What if Busch was paying good money for John (who was under employed) to procure kids? What if, after the sickos had their fun, he gave them back to John who did, in fact, think he was saving them by killing them? John has gotten off far too easy and he is still alive. LE needs to get to him before he dies too.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 16, 2012 14:59:33 GMT -5
Site Reader~ #1002~Helen,
I don't have a suspect. I don't have police powers and the cops have been playing hide the ball for over three decades. I know that John Hastings, Chris Busch, Greg Green and John McKinney were never sufficiently investigated in connection with these crimes. Nor were the deaths of Busch and McKinney, or of a cop who supposedly offed himself the same week as Busch supposedly offed himself. This is an outrage in a serial murder case with at least four child victims who were held captive for days before being murdered and left on roadsides. It is so staggeringly bad this case and investigation seem unreal.
As I look back at the OCCK siteTodd Matthews and you had up from 2001-2003, it is obvious that 9 years and god knows how much money and manpower later, somebody still has a stranglehold on this case. The site is no longer online, but I printed off the contents in 2007. In 2003, Todd Matthews posted the content of a letter he sent Michigan state senators about this investigation, as well as emails between him and someone in LE in Oakland County.
"Todd, I did speak with Helen Dagner and my Oakland County Prosecutor [at the time it was David Gorcyka]. It would seem he has lost his appetite for this matter. I get the impression that the Prosecutor's office has no interest in closing this case, because that would require resurrecting it and reminding the world of their inefficiency. After talking to Helen, I am sitting squarely on the fence at 50/50 convinced. But it does not look like I will be able to dedicate any time to this matter by myself with no resources. I will talk to Helen again today and later her know where the inquiry sits at now. Take care, Todd. I'll check the website from time to time to see what comes up. --XXXX"
Todd responds to XXXX: "Your recent revelation on the attitudes in Michigan has only confirmed my initial thoughts. I don't think they WANT to pursue the case. . . . I even became convinced that the locals must have ruled this [the JH tip from Helen] out, but simply were too rude to let me know. And that was OK by me, as long as they knew the info. I initially left the site online, hoping that it would receive a tip that would allow me to generate a new interest in the case--just in case something was overlooked. And I do get mail from local citizens who remember the case. No tips--just support. I cannot in good conscience leave this to the side. I am more convinced than ever that no one has even looked into the tips. I mentioned that I would continue to inform you of any updates to the case. I'm just at a loss of how to proceed right offhand. I do know that I must do something.--Todd"
XXXX responded: "You are right. They don't WANT it Re-opened. Because it would remind the entire state that they have been completely impotent on the case for over 25 years. Political futures are made and broken that way. So be it. . . . --XXXX"
In a January 2003 letter to the senators, Todd explains that the "REACTION of local officials is even more shocking than [Helen's] TIP is. I know now that even if this tip is not a valid tip, any actual tips that come in will likely never see the light of day."
THIS WAS NINE YEARS AGO. Same nuts is going on.
Consider the recent comments by a poster in response to WDIV's coverage of the release of Busch suicide photos (photos the MSP suddenly "found" after repeated FOIA requests):
Jim said:
The prosecutor's office is protecting someone that worked in either the police dept or the prosecutor's office when this crime occurred that is still alive and has considerable power and influence. That person(s) let a serial killer of children back out on the street due to his (Busch) families power, money and influence.
So I guess it doesn't matter whose suspect we are discussing or what I think of the investigation--because if this thing is getting squelched by the OC prosecutor's office, they can choke it all off and walk away (which is what they will continue to do). To add so much insult to injury in all of this, it is obvious there was and is corruption in Oakland County. There must be some pretty amazing skeletons in the Oakland County closet. How the state police and the OCP can claim to be so outraged over the attempts of family and others to shed some light on this festering sore is beyond reason. Some people, by misfeasance or malfeasance, ensured this case would never be "solved." How did this all get turned around so that the MSP and the OCP are able to complain bitterly over the case even though they have produced no answers in 35 years? Mark, Jill, Kris and Tim have long been forgotten in all of this.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 16, 2012 19:15:55 GMT -5
Site Reader #1003-...Long time reader, First time writer... I personally knew nothing about the OCCK, until I ran across this site a few years ago, by accident. Since then, I've read Helen's original story (which has never changed), followed discussions on the OCCK threads. considered GEOGRAPHIC PROFILING: Cass Corridor weirdos wouldn't know their way around the snatch/drop off areas , JOHN did and does, he lived there at the time so it was his natural and life long AREA OF COMFORT (Cass Corridor NO, John YES). Considered the fact that, never before in the history perverts, crime or law enforcement has a pervert snatched a kid, molested them, and then risked capture again by returning to the highly alerted area, to pose the victim! Which further rules out Cass Corridor, Fox Island and the rest of perverted "Usual Suspect" types. So, as I learned more, I kept coming back the the irking question of motive. If not ransom (it wasn't), nor sex (sure didn't seem to be), than what? SO far,---JOHN was only one who has articulated a motive that not only makes any kind of sense, it fits the series of crimes to a "T"-----. JOHN was of the right age, ---JOHN was in the area at the times,--- John was white, presentable and would have not stood out. ---JOHN has the troubled painful childhood ( Dad was a cold hearted prick-- Mom was Nuts), snubbed by women and the world, feeling cheaper than a nickle in a rich neighborhood, he'd been cheated, ripped off, snubbed, humiliated and jilted for the last time!!! SO he struck out at the unjust, tormenting world. There may also be something to the fact that the two boy/two girl victim ratio also matches the ratio of JOHN's siblings. So, from the simple process of elimination, JOHN looks like the last suspect standing and when you add personal history and psychology, the meticulously detailed maps of the individual pick up and drop off sites, hand drawn from memory alone many years after the fact and the all important motive, JOHN gets my vote for being the OCCK.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 16, 2012 22:52:12 GMT -5
Site Reader-#1004-Helen;
I can't see how this investigation can go on this many years with no public relations!
It's one thing to keep the public in the dark for so many years but it's another to never report status or anything else to the victim's families. How can they not be responsible for any obligations?
For your case alone they told the public that inquired that there was nothing to your story and that you made up this discussion at Bigboy.. When the letters went to the Michigan government agencies they replied the same making a joke out of it. Now 20 years later FOIA docs come out that point to a faulty investigation right from the start. How can they possibly go on and never answer to the public?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 17, 2012 11:34:34 GMT -5
Site Reader~# 1005~I think if I could write for Mark, Jill, Kristine and Tim in their “Stolen Voices” I’d say the following to the police:
Although we are all at peace now, our families, the community, many in law enforcement and believe it or not, even our killer is still not at peace after all of these years.
It’s some ways it is easy to explain. Our murders were committed by a very smart, calculating person who had an ax to grind with the community. His father was a real meanie, too. It’s a hard motive for Law Enforcement to understand. Our murders set off an unprecedented frenzy in the metropolitan Detroit area and the police were blinded by the amount of information and tips received by the public. Our killer had a perfect isolated location where no one would find us. He was smart enough to drop off our bodies in different cities so that police departments would have to work together to solve these crimes. This was more problematic back in the 70’s than it is today.
However, in other ways it’s baffling to us how Law Enforcement has not been able to see ‘the forest thru the trees’. They have a pretty good idea who our killer is. His name was handed to them on a “silver platter” by someone who had contact with the killer. This lady provided police with a boatload of information implicating the guy. They had once interviewed this guy long ago but he passed a lie detector test. Don’t they know that psychopaths like him can pass these tests? Yet, alibis that were not properly checked out in the past, lie detector exams which didn’t ask the correct questions, interviews where lies were told but believed by the police…well we could go on and on but missed opportunities have prevented our killer from being arrested. He has tried to go into hiding for years. In fact, he has moved several times, does not have much contact with his family and has a job which is good enough to pays his bills. You will not find a recent picture of him on the internet or anywhere as he has been laying “as low, as possible” for a very long time.
Our killer’s health is not the best so we’d like Law Enforcement to “put the screws to him and family” so that this can finally come to a resolution soon. Oh, his younger brothers know what he did. So do his sisters. Now, witnesses, families and relatives are all getting older. Even some of the dedicated law enforcement agents have come and are now gone.
Please hurry! Our families, the community and the dedicated law enforcement who have tried to help find him deserve much better than the past 35 plus years without an arrest.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 17, 2012 11:41:05 GMT -5
~Site Reader-#1006~Portraits In The Snow by M. F. Cribari was a daring release that offered up a slimy underbelly of pedophilia for the delight of the uber wealthy. The author made some leaps to connect this group to the deaths of the OCCK victims, but it was a leap she was brave enough to make.
Deeply researched, Cribari exposes the length and depth of the now infamous, North Fox Island "camp" where kids were taken for ostensibly "humanitarian" purposes but were actually the play toys to vile, deviant creatures. Whether there is a direct link to the OCCK or not, her research broke open a well sewn up bag of scum and spilled it out for authorities to see.
I cannot deny that the Busch connection is compelling. I cannot deny that Busch, himself, is OCCK involved. I can't say that McKinney wasn't involved in both the Fox Island group or associated with the OCCK somehow. There hasn't been enough investigation. What the book did do was draw a very short line between McKinney and two of the victims - a line no one knew existed before. I have always believed that McKinney's death was somehow related to the OCCK and there have been many bits of info that point to a relationship between John's family and McKinney. A triangle forms.
Agree with the book, disagree with the book, what it did do was provoke conversation that brought about more reasons to investigate John, Busch, McKinney in relation to the OCCK cases.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 17, 2012 22:22:01 GMT -5
Site Reader #~1007~I was just over at topic and I see that good old Les is still at it. I have loosely kept track of his mental deterioration since I first saw his postings in 2004, really marvel at high level his imagination has been able to function at for so long, it's just too bad he mistakes it for reality. He lives in an exciting, ever changing, scary world, where no sooner than he connect all of the invisible dots of evidence that only he can see, than it all magically vanishes before he can show anyone. Not once, but time and time again. Wow, how synchronous. Opportune too. Anyway, maybe Steven Hawking is right and there are mini-black holes left over from the Big Bang and they keep swallowing his proof. Yup, right up there with "The dog ate it". I really think he better be careful regarding these phone calls he's been getting, because as far as he knows, the caller may just say he is the cops, when it's really Black Ops coming to wack him for knowing too much. However, in this case the Ops will be wearing white coats and will take you for a nice ride in a rubber truck. So, if we don't hear from Les for a while.....
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 18, 2012 14:27:18 GMT -5
Site Reader~#1008~At the risk of being considered a nut I ask you to follow along with me for a bit.
It has been said that the OCCK investigation is on lock-down. It is being actively investigated by a new team of people and no longer in the hands of just a few of some of the old guard.
Oh but if it were true. And we can only hope it is. Perhaps new eyes will see through so much of the smoke where it is claimed there was no fire. Perhaps their hands will not be tied with cronyism old and new. Perhaps the information handed to them will be complete and not used to send them off in a direction which continues to protect old mistakes and even a few pieces of the puzzle which were deliberately kept hidden and away from the whole picture.
It is said that all any of us can do now is wait. The years of finding facts and evidence have finally come to this.
We can do more than simply wait and hope. We can visualize every day that perfect end result and begin to shift this energy.
Now I may be a romantic nut who believes in the spiritual power of focused energy visualizing the perfect end result and the unlimited potent power of light directed by a dedicated complete coven of women (men too). And while we can not control what these new investigators do we can certainly bring our unlimited energy into the service of deciding we will accept nothing less than to make sure the light continues to shine I their direction. Our positive focus is stronger than any negative force which may seek to hold us at bay.
I believe this.
What I am saying is that to come together in a forceful unyielding collective flow of our spiritual strength is to find the force to move a mountain.
In the last year or more I have come into contact with some of the women most dedicated to this cause. I have found and unending spring of all of the elements needed to finish this. I am touched and impressed with the Mother Lioness living in each of them. I have no doubt this case will come to a close as a result of this continued collective energy.
I want to remain a part of it. Every day I will light a candle some incense and send up the visualized perfect picture of these families finding relief in their pursuit from the pain of never knowing.
I am asking everyone here to join me daily in the focus by lighting a sacred candle burning their good earth incense and focusing and tapping into each other and our power and our purpose.
We hold the strength of the universe in our own hands. If we use it together it will move this mountain.
Blessings
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 18, 2012 20:59:52 GMT -5
~Site Reader##-1009~Hey stranger! How are ya?
LOL, your ears must have been ringing (In a good way). Whenever there's big news on the OCCK I always think of you, among other times. I'm always interested in the OCCK, as you know I think of the kids often. Never a time goes by when I'm not sitting at the light at Maple and Woodward that I don't look over and think about the old Chatham's Grocery store and Tim King. Or that I don't drive near 13 and Telegraph and think of Kristine lying in the cold snow. Time marches on, but their community never forgets them either. I did look at all the suicide pics, like everyone else did. I sure wish we could read that address/phone book better. I feel terrible for the families. It's really just criminal that our local prosecutor has cut them out completely and I sure hope it's affects the next election.
I'm currently knee deep in a couple big projects which is why I haven't had a chance to write you. Maybe I can write up something for you soon..I know you don't think Busch was involved, but I still wonder given the proximity and the ages, etc, if there wasn't some tie in with John at some point trying to make some extra cash running some kiddie porn or something. It seems like there are so many underlying currents of things between Busch, McKinney, and John. I know you said before that Busch's door was open to the garage, but seeing the picture of it, really drives that point home. It wasn't just "left open", that screen door was open using the slider lock on the mechanism to keep it open. That was an intentional thing. Why would someone do that and then go to bed? I suppose if he was that drunk he could have forgotten it. Usually that would be done only temporarily for like carrying in groceries or something...or left open for someone to make a fast escape to be able to get out of the house, hit the overhead door to close, while you quickly got out underneath of it. With 4 times the legal limit of alcohol in him, that kitchen is way too clean, surely too clean to need the maid to finally return.
Hope you're doing well yourself, regardless of the case.
----- Original Message -----
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 19, 2012 1:11:55 GMT -5
Site Reader #1010~Little Kristine:
Time has flown by while our busy lives have passed these three and half decades. Some of us have grown old, some have with surprise stumbled into middle age while still others have simply grown up. We have been allowed the blessing of our lives – good bad or otherwise we have had them. We continue to live and grow and flourish.
Three days from now January 21, will mark the 35th year of when little Kristine was found murdered by an unknown killer – 35 years.
Right now is the anniversary of a time when her family, their friends and untold numbers of strangers prayed for her safe return. Right now is a time when we need to think about this little girl and how she was robbed of her life. We need to remember her family’s anguish and tears. We need to remember her and how important she was. She mattered.
Through the blessing of having had all this time we’ve come to know that life is short and time is precious. Unfortunately for the family of little Kristine, life was a cruel and hard teacher in that lesson. Their time with her was short and more precious than they knew before a monster took her from them.
Right now is a time to remain vigilant and not give up on the hope that her family will still, after so long find the peace they deserve in knowing who took their little one and why.
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 19, 2012 9:56:15 GMT -5
Site Reader~#1011~Personally, I feel the biggest detriment to the investigation came when the detectives who had been working the murders of Mark and Jill and the kidnapping of Kristine, were ordered to turn over their murder books to the taskforce and assigned to other cases.
The taskforce started looking for one person that could be connected to all 3 murders. All a viable suspect needed was one girlfriend, parent, whoever, to say “Nope, he was with me at that time” and they were crossed off the list.
Tim’s disappearance changed the course. Now the taskforce was no longer working a murder, but a kidnapping. And the tips that came in immediately following? Erased….seriously??
There is one suspect that witnesses can place at the American Legion Hall the day of Mark Stebbins’s abduction. This same suspect was a student of Jill’s father, Mr. Robinson. Jill was shot on the side of I-75 within site of the Troy , PD, most likely during the midnight shift. Why is that important? This same suspect was friendly with the cops that worked nights and possibly used Jill as a means to get close the investigation.
You would think this would be enough to warrant an investigation from the taskforce, but NO…not even being a regular customer at the bowling alley Kris’s mother worked at was enough.
And that Lady at Landmark last seen having dinner or lunch with McKinney …..strong resemblance to this same suspects mother. The police cared enough about that case back in the late 70s to hypnotize the waitress who served them, but wasn’t the slightest bit interested when pictures were sent with the police sketch a few years ago.
In the past several years we have watched suspect and suspect paraded in front of the media. It was Norberg! No, wait, we meant Raar….or was it Lawson? Maybe Lamborgine….HAD to have been him. Or, maybe it was Grant, maybe it was Busch. Wow! We have a DNA match…how does Gunnel, a 14 year old boy fit in. And just how many people in the country will match that particular Mitochondrial DNA?
Yet through all of this, why hasn’t this one single suspect been thoroughly investigated? Why wasn’t Spidey’s statement about the bike taken seriously? What about the lady who saw him in the pharmacy or the phone calls that occurred that we know to be true.
In my opinion, the taskforce needs to go back to the basics. Start with Stebbins, and solve it. Move on to Jill. Solve it. Then Kristine and finally Timmy. Quit looking for the common thread, if they solve one case, and they are in fact all connected like we believe them to be, then the other cases will be easier to solve.
At least one of the detectives in the earlier cases is still alive. To the best of my knowledge the new taskforce has never contacted him. Really? Isn’t that Cold Case protocol 101 to go back to the original investigating detective?
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Post by Helen Dagner on Jan 20, 2012 14:40:43 GMT -5
Site Reader~# 1012~Helen,
I have seen these pictures before but I am still overcome with a deep anger seeing them again. All of these men have harmed children. Some of them I believe have destroyed untold numbers of kids. That any of these men ever walked among us causes me to want to scream. Understanding that there are countless men just like these still walking our streets stalking and preying on our children is a nightmare.
These pigs are predators with the same instincts as any animal. Their drive to hunt can not be punished out of them. It can not be changed. They can not re-learn how to live among decent people without these impulses. There is no such thing as paying a debt to society for these predators. They must be kept in cages where they can not do what comes so natural to them.
While our understanding of what makes these creatures tick, how they operate and the damage they do has come a long way, our laws have not caught up to our science. There should be no second third and fourth chances to tear apart another child and their family.
That one of these men took the lives of the four children from Oakland County in the 1970s and was never brought to justice (if there is such a thing) makes me ill. I believe any person or people who may have stood in the way of bringing this killer(s) in to face the families of these kids and to be held accountable, are themselves despicable.
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